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I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course

I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course, they hang out with each other. Same with executives at large companies. They might be nominally "competitors", but they've already learned that they have more in common with one another than with employees in the companies they run.

nyellin 15y ago
We are surprised by the blatant disregard for employee rights and that they would do something so illegal.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  I guess I'm cynical, but I'm not surprised. I wouldn't have expected some specific individuals (I thought more of Eric Schmidt; I always liked him) to be involved but the behavior is not shocking. Yes, it's shitty and illegal. No, it's not at all surprising. Let's say that you're talking to an investor and you tell him that you're being courted by another VC and that he needs to act fast. What's the first thing he'll do, if he takes you seriously? Pick up the phone and call the guy (they were classmates in business school, and it's "bros before schmos", man.) If there was proper competition, that sort of thing would never happen. Social class is an ugly reality and people in higher social classes always look out for each other first. The real competition is insiders vs. outsiders. Human societies are naturally conspiratorial. I don't know what the solution to this problem is (other than, individually, to just keep working hard and trying to be awesome enough that the general wankbasketry of humanity doesn't matter) but it's obvious that our current regulatory machinery is too thin.
  - badclient 15y ago
    Actually I am shit surprised. Is there any chance of this becoming criminal?
    - jamesaguilar 15y ago
      It already is, hence the lawsuits.
      - nyellin 15y ago
        No it isn't. IANAL, but I believe class action lawsuits deal with civil, not criminal, offenses. Don't be so fast to downvote the grandparent if you didn't understand the question.
        zedshaw 15y ago
        Yes, it is illegal in a criminal way, thus the original DOJ investigation and settlement between these companies and the DOJ.
        Drbble 15y ago
        That's not what "criminal" means under law.
      - fabjan 15y ago
        Why are lawsuits needed if it's criminal?
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    I don't think it's just the higher classes that look out for each other, you will find inverse snobbery everywhere. It's just more visible in the higher classes because they have disproportional income and influence. I think most people here would rather hang out with another techie from a rival company than they would with the head of marketing from their own company.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
itmag 15y ago
The idea that small cabals of individuals can act in collusion like this goes against the commonly held view of the economy as an anonymous force of nature that always moves toward efficient equilibrium. But sometimes that's just what happens.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  Why I find "conspiracy theories" ridiculous: with "friends" (above-board entities like corporations, proud of having titled nobility... er, I mean, executives; I forgot that "America doesn't have a hereditary aristocracy") like our leading large institutions, who needs enemies? Why invent shadowy evil organizations when there are so many objectively-visible and extremely greedy (if not quite evil, and most often too stupid and poorly-run to pull off the levels of evil we imagine) ones? The evil-evils don't meet in shadowy mansions with bad lighting and creepy piano music. They meet in private parties in Aspen and executive boardrooms and on the boards of "charities" that really exist as a scoreboard for the social status of rich people. They also don't have huge orgies. They visit prostitutes half their age whom they pay $1500/night to endure their post-coital crying about their mistakes (such as marrying dumb trophy/corporate wives and having to write high-six-figure donation checks to shove their low-IQ kids into Ivies). There isn't "one conspiracy to rule them all", but there are lower-case-c conspiracies all over the place.
  - itmag 15y ago
    Conspiracy just means "in the same spirit" (from the latin con spirare - breathe together).
    - michaelochurch 15y ago
      Upvote back to +1, just because I think it's interesting how words fairly arbitrarily acquire strong signed (positive or negative) meanings, e.g. awful vs. awesome, collaboration vs. collusion. It's not at all stable across languages. If you call someone a "collabo" (collaborator) in France, that's a huge insult (referring to Nazi collaborators in the Vichy era).
sambeau 15y ago
Not that I'm trying to argue against this being an evil practice, but out of curiosity, how many YC startups would consider it OK to poach staff from another YC startup? Would it cause bad feeling?
- sroussey 15y ago
  Bad feeling? Bad feelings affect all sorts of decisions, so what? That would be different than, say, YC telling companies not to do so, and the companies agreeing en mass. That would be a conspiracy of criminal conduct. But most YC companies are so small that the idea of taking a person from another tiny company, YC or not, probably would cause a "bad feeling". Give the tiny companies a break. God, I interviewed at one and they asked if I was married and had kids, because if I did, then it wouldn't work out. The answer was no, and no, and the important one was also a no. They will get better some day, but when they are so small, it doesn't matter.

nyellin 15y ago

We are surprised by the blatant disregard for employee rights and that they would do something so illegal.

michaelochurch 15y ago
I guess I'm cynical, but I'm not surprised. I wouldn't have expected some specific individuals (I thought more of Eric Schmidt; I always liked him) to be involved but the behavior is not shocking. Yes, it's shitty and illegal. No, it's not at all surprising. Let's say that you're talking to an investor and you tell him that you're being courted by another VC and that he needs to act fast. What's the first thing he'll do, if he takes you seriously? Pick up the phone and call the guy (they were classmates in business school, and it's "bros before schmos", man.) If there was proper competition, that sort of thing would never happen. Social class is an ugly reality and people in higher social classes always look out for each other first. The real competition is insiders vs. outsiders. Human societies are naturally conspiratorial. I don't know what the solution to this problem is (other than, individually, to just keep working hard and trying to be awesome enough that the general wankbasketry of humanity doesn't matter) but it's obvious that our current regulatory machinery is too thin.
- badclient 15y ago
  Actually I am shit surprised. Is there any chance of this becoming criminal?
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    It already is, hence the lawsuits.
    - nyellin 15y ago
      No it isn't. IANAL, but I believe class action lawsuits deal with civil, not criminal, offenses. Don't be so fast to downvote the grandparent if you didn't understand the question.
      - zedshaw 15y ago
        Yes, it is illegal in a criminal way, thus the original DOJ investigation and settlement between these companies and the DOJ.
        Drbble 15y ago
        That's not what "criminal" means under law.
    - fabjan 15y ago
      Why are lawsuits needed if it's criminal?
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  I don't think it's just the higher classes that look out for each other, you will find inverse snobbery everywhere. It's just more visible in the higher classes because they have disproportional income and influence. I think most people here would rather hang out with another techie from a rival company than they would with the head of marketing from their own company.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

itmag 15y ago

The idea that small cabals of individuals can act in collusion like this goes against the commonly held view of the economy as an anonymous force of nature that always moves toward efficient equilibrium. But sometimes that's just what happens.

michaelochurch 15y ago
Why I find "conspiracy theories" ridiculous: with "friends" (above-board entities like corporations, proud of having titled nobility... er, I mean, executives; I forgot that "America doesn't have a hereditary aristocracy") like our leading large institutions, who needs enemies? Why invent shadowy evil organizations when there are so many objectively-visible and extremely greedy (if not quite evil, and most often too stupid and poorly-run to pull off the levels of evil we imagine) ones? The evil-evils don't meet in shadowy mansions with bad lighting and creepy piano music. They meet in private parties in Aspen and executive boardrooms and on the boards of "charities" that really exist as a scoreboard for the social status of rich people. They also don't have huge orgies. They visit prostitutes half their age whom they pay $1500/night to endure their post-coital crying about their mistakes (such as marrying dumb trophy/corporate wives and having to write high-six-figure donation checks to shove their low-IQ kids into Ivies). There isn't "one conspiracy to rule them all", but there are lower-case-c conspiracies all over the place.
- itmag 15y ago
  Conspiracy just means "in the same spirit" (from the latin con spirare - breathe together).
  - michaelochurch 15y ago
    Upvote back to +1, just because I think it's interesting how words fairly arbitrarily acquire strong signed (positive or negative) meanings, e.g. awful vs. awesome, collaboration vs. collusion. It's not at all stable across languages. If you call someone a "collabo" (collaborator) in France, that's a huge insult (referring to Nazi collaborators in the Vichy era).

sambeau 15y ago

Not that I'm trying to argue against this being an evil practice, but out of curiosity, how many YC startups would consider it OK to poach staff from another YC startup? Would it cause bad feeling?

sroussey 15y ago
Bad feeling? Bad feelings affect all sorts of decisions, so what? That would be different than, say, YC telling companies not to do so, and the companies agreeing en mass. That would be a conspiracy of criminal conduct. But most YC companies are so small that the idea of taking a person from another tiny company, YC or not, probably would cause a "bad feeling". Give the tiny companies a break. God, I interviewed at one and they asked if I was married and had kids, because if I did, then it wouldn't work out. The answer was no, and no, and the important one was also a no. They will get better some day, but when they are so small, it doesn't matter.