4 ms·

They could make the pin process intentionally slow… maybe with some number of iterations… and as computers get faster they can just update the number of iterati

They could make the pin process intentionally slow… maybe with some number of iterations… and as computers get faster they can just update the number of iterations required…

morpheuskafka 4y ago
If the PIN is local, only a secure element type of chip could meaningfully enforce this restriction. Otherwise, whatever memory or disk stores the secret encrypted only by the 4-digit PIN could still be brute forced. Just disabling entering a PIN in the UI would not be enough for security.
- 0xdeafbeef 4y ago
  You can use pbdkf2 with 200k iterations or argon2 to derive key from pin
  - barsonme 4y ago
    This has very limited benefit for weak passcodes, like PINs.
  - gengkev 4y ago
    Suppose it takes 2 seconds of 100% cpu usage to compute the password hash (you probably wouldn't want to wait much longer). Then brute forcing a 4 digit PIN will take 20000 seconds ≈ 6 hours maximum. There's no way around that, no matter what hash function you use.
    - benatkin 4y ago
      In that case make it take a week to unlock your password store, then it will take 200 years to unlock it!
  - chrisandchris 4y ago
    Which will still be ... nothing? > [...] As a comparison baseline, a 2.4 GHz Core2 CPU can perform about 2.3 millions of elementary SHA-256 computations per second (with a single core), so this would imply, on that CPU, about 20000 rounds to achieve the "8 milliseconds" goal. So you'll need something that takes at least as long as entering your full password, at which point you basically could enter the full password (from a UX perspective). They PIN is here to make it faster and it will always be security vs. ease-of-use. [1] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/3959/recommended-of-iterations-when-using-pbkdf2-sha256 https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/3959/recommende...
  - TJSomething 4y ago
    An Nvidia RTX 4090 can crack a 4 digit pin using PBKDF2 with 200k iterations in less than a quarter of a second. Argon2 is definitely the better option, but even at 1 hash per second, that's less 3 hours.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
8ytecoder 4y ago
And add other defensive mechanisms like lockout after n retries.
- mmis1000 4y ago
  Unless you are using a hardware based pin. Lockout is useless. I can just backup the file before lockout and restore Or… I can just stop the software, change computer time. And the timeout is over.
- sowbug 4y ago
  That's a bit like putting a website password check in the client-side JavaScript. Attacker removes lockout, continues brute-forcing. There really isn't a solution if the entropy is low and the enforcement mechanisms are in the hands of the attacker. Even a TPM or secure element is just a financial obstacle to a sufficiently motivated attacker.
  - cryptonector 4y ago
    > Even a TPM or secure element is just a financial obstacle to a sufficiently motivated attacker. For sure, but currently it's a fairly big step function for an attacker to have to teardown a TPM (or find a vulnerability in its firmware).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
nebulous1 4y ago
It already is intentionally "slow". However, for a 4 digit pin there are only 10 thousand combinations. It is not practical for it to be so slow that 10000x it is an infeasible amount of time. Not only would the user have to way too long on each entry, the attacker could just use faster hardware.
- pmontra 4y ago
  Or multiple machines. There are about 31k seconds in a year. 3.1 seconds per iteration seems already slow as a response time to unlock a db so it's about one year for those 10000 attempts. Split it between 10 machines by first digit, it's down to a little more than one month. Split it between 100 machines by the first two digits and it's down to half a week. A four digit PIN is poor security. What Bitwarden could do is removing that feature.
  - warkdarrior 4y ago
    Uhm, 31k seconds is about 8.7 hours.
  - usefulcat 4y ago
    31.5 million seconds in a year
    - pmontra 4y ago
      You're right, sorry. I probably misread my screen.
  - chrisandchris 4y ago
    Split it to 5000 machines, which will be "quite easy to get" for a computation that takes a single line in most languages. Then we're talking about 6 seconds and 50% success on first try.

They could make the pin process intentionally slow… maybe with some number of iterations… and as computers get faster they can just update the number of iterations required…

morpheuskafka 4y ago

If the PIN is local, only a secure element type of chip could meaningfully enforce this restriction. Otherwise, whatever memory or disk stores the secret encrypted only by the 4-digit PIN could still be brute forced. Just disabling entering a PIN in the UI would not be enough for security.

0xdeafbeef 4y ago
You can use pbdkf2 with 200k iterations or argon2 to derive key from pin
- barsonme 4y ago
  This has very limited benefit for weak passcodes, like PINs.
- gengkev 4y ago
  Suppose it takes 2 seconds of 100% cpu usage to compute the password hash (you probably wouldn't want to wait much longer). Then brute forcing a 4 digit PIN will take 20000 seconds ≈ 6 hours maximum. There's no way around that, no matter what hash function you use.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    In that case make it take a week to unlock your password store, then it will take 200 years to unlock it!
- chrisandchris 4y ago
  Which will still be ... nothing? > [...] As a comparison baseline, a 2.4 GHz Core2 CPU can perform about 2.3 millions of elementary SHA-256 computations per second (with a single core), so this would imply, on that CPU, about 20000 rounds to achieve the "8 milliseconds" goal. So you'll need something that takes at least as long as entering your full password, at which point you basically could enter the full password (from a UX perspective). They PIN is here to make it faster and it will always be security vs. ease-of-use. [1] https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/3959/recommended-of-iterations-when-using-pbkdf2-sha256 https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/3959/recommende...
- TJSomething 4y ago
  An Nvidia RTX 4090 can crack a 4 digit pin using PBKDF2 with 200k iterations in less than a quarter of a second. Argon2 is definitely the better option, but even at 1 hash per second, that's less 3 hours.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

8ytecoder 4y ago

And add other defensive mechanisms like lockout after n retries.

mmis1000 4y ago
Unless you are using a hardware based pin. Lockout is useless. I can just backup the file before lockout and restore Or… I can just stop the software, change computer time. And the timeout is over.
sowbug 4y ago
That's a bit like putting a website password check in the client-side JavaScript. Attacker removes lockout, continues brute-forcing. There really isn't a solution if the entropy is low and the enforcement mechanisms are in the hands of the attacker. Even a TPM or secure element is just a financial obstacle to a sufficiently motivated attacker.
- cryptonector 4y ago
  > Even a TPM or secure element is just a financial obstacle to a sufficiently motivated attacker. For sure, but currently it's a fairly big step function for an attacker to have to teardown a TPM (or find a vulnerability in its firmware).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

nebulous1 4y ago

It already is intentionally "slow". However, for a 4 digit pin there are only 10 thousand combinations. It is not practical for it to be so slow that 10000x it is an infeasible amount of time. Not only would the user have to way too long on each entry, the attacker could just use faster hardware.

pmontra 4y ago
Or multiple machines. There are about 31k seconds in a year. 3.1 seconds per iteration seems already slow as a response time to unlock a db so it's about one year for those 10000 attempts. Split it between 10 machines by first digit, it's down to a little more than one month. Split it between 100 machines by the first two digits and it's down to half a week. A four digit PIN is poor security. What Bitwarden could do is removing that feature.
- warkdarrior 4y ago
  Uhm, 31k seconds is about 8.7 hours.
- usefulcat 4y ago
  31.5 million seconds in a year
  - pmontra 4y ago
    You're right, sorry. I probably misread my screen.
- chrisandchris 4y ago
  Split it to 5000 machines, which will be "quite easy to get" for a computation that takes a single line in most languages. Then we're talking about 6 seconds and 50% success on first try.