4 ms·

the more I see hacked password vaults (lastpass for example), the more I want to build a p2p password vault that only lives on my own devices.

krab 4y ago
KeePass plus Dropbox. Or Syncthing for really using only your devices.
neandrake 4y ago
Codebook might be suitable. You can sync to Dropbox or google drive, or instead only sync between devices on the lan. https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/ https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/
IceWreck 4y ago
It already exists: keepass and sync your DB on all your devices with syncthing (which is p2p). Or host vaultwarden on your homeserver and access it only through wireguard/nebula self hosted VPN.
- Macha 4y ago
  Note the KeePass's resistance to the attack mentioned depends on the security of .NET's secure string, which, here's what Microsoft has to say about it (https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/blob/master/docs/DE0001.md https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/blob/master/docs/D...) As for KeePassXC, last I checked it didn't even bother.
tete 4y ago
Wouldn't it be enough to use something like Keepassxc and sync with whatever you use for syncing?
- lucb1e 4y ago
  It would, so long as you're aware that the password has to be strong. Let's quantify that. The default KDF that keepassx uses is iirc ~50ms seconds of computation on modern hardware. It might dynamically determine the KDF rounds based on your system, but it never updates it (hmm, is that a vuln as well?) so it'll be old either way. A GPU gets a ~thousand-fold speed-up compared to CPU for pbkdf2, so let's say 20k guesses per second per GPU (note: this is just a ballpark number). An attacker might have a dozen GPUs available and care to spend a month on your vault (does that sound like a fair upper bound? Tweak it for your personal threat model), which means they run through some log(20e3 guesses_per_second × 12 gpus × (3600×24×31) seconds)/log(2) ≃ 40 bits of entropy. If you pick random words from a diceware-sized dictionary (7776 words), you need 4 random words to be secure (because log(7776⁴)/log(2)>40). If you pick random characters from a-z,A-Z,0-9, you need a 7-character randomly generated password (because log(62⁷)/log(2)>40). Edit: it looks like KeepassX has stopped development and says to use KeepassXC now. Their source code has some mentions of Argon2id so this may be outdated advice! Your password/-phrase may be able to be shorter than this, but it'll be hard to quantify because all Argon2 crackers suck ("For Argon2, the fastest cracking software that I can find is a CPU implementation." I wrote two years ago in https://security.stackexchange.com/a/249384/10863 https://security.stackexchange.com/a/249384/10863).
badsoftware 4y ago
You can host Bitwarden yourself, look into Vaultwarden.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
I like self-hosting things, but for something as sensitive as my passwords I trust a professional company much more than I trust myself. Yes, companies can and do screw things up all the time, but that doesn't mean I would do better, and I'm a single person with other responsibilities in my life.
- lucb1e 4y ago
  Or you don't host it but just keep it tight to your chest. No risk of any server being compromised then. Professional companies that care about security (I do IT security consulting so that's the group I deal with the most) are not perfectly secure. I'd argue that it's less likely that a password database is abused when hosted on a random average-security system (assuming the person is not being targeted, like if you're not a public figure or have a stalker) than if you've got it hosted with some bigcorp that has a huge target painted on their back. Some are really good at security and others a bit less, but none are perfect, and scale dictates compromises between security and usability. Not everyone in the firm will be a security expert, and much as you try to isolate the vaults / source code / other security-relevant systems from them, they're how ransomware and other groups gain a foothold to work with. I wouldn't trust my mom to set up a server secure enough for a password manager to be hosted on, but if you are comfortable around servers at all and follow normal guidelines, or use normal syncing software that is only encrypted to the server (so you pick and rely on a strong password for your vault file), you're more secure than when you use a third party and type that password into their website (even if, on a good day, the key stays local in your browser).
microtonal 4y ago
It doesn't have to be P2P, as long as the vault items are encrypted using device-specific secrets that are in a secure element (like iCloud Keychain). As long as there is no secure element in the loop, the security is limited. Secure elements can rate limit requests, require biometric authentication, etc. Without such limitations, you are only one upstream compromise away from exfiltrating all passwords.
Diggsey 4y ago
I built my own that does this :) Just working on improving the UX now... It has some cool features too, like not injecting anything into pages until you activate it (so no performance cost or risk of breaking sites) being less reliant on perfect detection of fields when it is activated, etc.
CMCDragonkai 4y ago
We've been building a p2p password vault called Polykey. https://GitHub.com/MatrixAI/Polykey https://GitHub.com/MatrixAI/Polykey.
- lucb1e 4y ago
  > No server is currently available to service your request. Found the SPOF! But also, "AI"? And "we've been building" doesn't sound like it's production-ready yet. I don't know, lots of red flags here to me.
  - CMCDragonkai 4y ago
    No it's not production ready yet. Matrix AI is just our company name.

krab 4y ago

KeePass plus Dropbox. Or Syncthing for really using only your devices.

neandrake 4y ago

Codebook might be suitable. You can sync to Dropbox or google drive, or instead only sync between devices on the lan. https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/ https://www.zetetic.net/codebook/

IceWreck 4y ago

It already exists: keepass and sync your DB on all your devices with syncthing (which is p2p). Or host vaultwarden on your homeserver and access it only through wireguard/nebula self hosted VPN.

Macha 4y ago
Note the KeePass's resistance to the attack mentioned depends on the security of .NET's secure string, which, here's what Microsoft has to say about it (https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/blob/master/docs/DE0001.md https://github.com/dotnet/platform-compat/blob/master/docs/D...) As for KeePassXC, last I checked it didn't even bother.

tete 4y ago

Wouldn't it be enough to use something like Keepassxc and sync with whatever you use for syncing?

lucb1e 4y ago
It would, so long as you're aware that the password has to be strong. Let's quantify that. The default KDF that keepassx uses is iirc ~50ms seconds of computation on modern hardware. It might dynamically determine the KDF rounds based on your system, but it never updates it (hmm, is that a vuln as well?) so it'll be old either way. A GPU gets a ~thousand-fold speed-up compared to CPU for pbkdf2, so let's say 20k guesses per second per GPU (note: this is just a ballpark number). An attacker might have a dozen GPUs available and care to spend a month on your vault (does that sound like a fair upper bound? Tweak it for your personal threat model), which means they run through some log(20e3 guesses_per_second × 12 gpus × (3600×24×31) seconds)/log(2) ≃ 40 bits of entropy. If you pick random words from a diceware-sized dictionary (7776 words), you need 4 random words to be secure (because log(7776⁴)/log(2)>40). If you pick random characters from a-z,A-Z,0-9, you need a 7-character randomly generated password (because log(62⁷)/log(2)>40). Edit: it looks like KeepassX has stopped development and says to use KeepassXC now. Their source code has some mentions of Argon2id so this may be outdated advice! Your password/-phrase may be able to be shorter than this, but it'll be hard to quantify because all Argon2 crackers suck ("For Argon2, the fastest cracking software that I can find is a CPU implementation." I wrote two years ago in https://security.stackexchange.com/a/249384/10863 https://security.stackexchange.com/a/249384/10863).

badsoftware 4y ago

You can host Bitwarden yourself, look into Vaultwarden.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

I like self-hosting things, but for something as sensitive as my passwords I trust a professional company much more than I trust myself. Yes, companies can and do screw things up all the time, but that doesn't mean I would do better, and I'm a single person with other responsibilities in my life.

lucb1e 4y ago
Or you don't host it but just keep it tight to your chest. No risk of any server being compromised then. Professional companies that care about security (I do IT security consulting so that's the group I deal with the most) are not perfectly secure. I'd argue that it's less likely that a password database is abused when hosted on a random average-security system (assuming the person is not being targeted, like if you're not a public figure or have a stalker) than if you've got it hosted with some bigcorp that has a huge target painted on their back. Some are really good at security and others a bit less, but none are perfect, and scale dictates compromises between security and usability. Not everyone in the firm will be a security expert, and much as you try to isolate the vaults / source code / other security-relevant systems from them, they're how ransomware and other groups gain a foothold to work with. I wouldn't trust my mom to set up a server secure enough for a password manager to be hosted on, but if you are comfortable around servers at all and follow normal guidelines, or use normal syncing software that is only encrypted to the server (so you pick and rely on a strong password for your vault file), you're more secure than when you use a third party and type that password into their website (even if, on a good day, the key stays local in your browser).

microtonal 4y ago

It doesn't have to be P2P, as long as the vault items are encrypted using device-specific secrets that are in a secure element (like iCloud Keychain). As long as there is no secure element in the loop, the security is limited. Secure elements can rate limit requests, require biometric authentication, etc. Without such limitations, you are only one upstream compromise away from exfiltrating all passwords.

Diggsey 4y ago

I built my own that does this :) Just working on improving the UX now... It has some cool features too, like not injecting anything into pages until you activate it (so no performance cost or risk of breaking sites) being less reliant on perfect detection of fields when it is activated, etc.

CMCDragonkai 4y ago

We've been building a p2p password vault called Polykey. https://GitHub.com/MatrixAI/Polykey https://GitHub.com/MatrixAI/Polykey.

lucb1e 4y ago
> No server is currently available to service your request. Found the SPOF! But also, "AI"? And "we've been building" doesn't sound like it's production-ready yet. I don't know, lots of red flags here to me.
- CMCDragonkai 4y ago
  No it's not production ready yet. Matrix AI is just our company name.