4 ms·

I don't think there are specific issues. The problem is that with each release of macOS usability, reliability and performance regress. If you're interested in

I don't think there are specific issues. The problem is that with each release of macOS usability, reliability and performance regress. If you're interested in these things and not so much in "bling" and questionable new features, then you'd share probably Ken's "atrocious" opinion. An example is the latest System Preferences. It's virtually unusable.

rasengan 4y ago
Apple ecosystem is no longer software - only apps. It’s hard to do(code) normal things on the OS because of all of the fancy “security”
- dagmx 4y ago
  What code is prevented by security? Other than limits to kexts, your code isn’t beholden to most of the system security changes unless you specifically opt in to make a sandboxed app.
  - runjake 4y ago
    Your code is certainly “beholden” to most of the system security changes, and your app is effectively sandboxes regardless of your wishes. Source: Self after working on anti-theft software for macOS, for a few years now.
    - dagmx 4y ago
      Your app is not beholden to sandboxing unless you specifically are using sandboxing as part of your application configuration. It would also only apply to app bundles. I can make a command line tool or a standalone Qt application right now without having sandboxing pop up at all. Even for access that the OS protects the user from, as an app developer I rarely need to think about it. When I try and access a limited area it asks the user for me. Source: self after working on lots of varied code bases from web dev to 3D libraries and standalone applications for over a decade.
  - kagakuninja 4y ago
    I have to deal with refusal to install apps from "untrusted developers" constantly, I can't even believe you wrote that. For starters, the UI experience is terrible. You get a dialog telling you you can't install an app; close the dialog then you have to know to go to a certain Settings tab under Privacy & Security, and there will (hopefully) be some text that allows you to enable the app. This is a UI disaster. Maybe they do it so that non-technical users will give up in frustration. Once MacOS decided that my official Oracle JRE was "untrusted", and I would get the bullshit dialog every time I started a Java process (note: I develop apps using the JVM). I had to google to learn some arcane CLI magic to disable the untrusted bits on my JRE files. More recently, I couldn't get CIV 6 to run. Instead of telling you what to do, you get a "app is corrupted" dialog (maybe this was the fault of Steam). This required multiple enabling via the magic permissions tab. I mean, are Steam and Firaxis not "trusted developers". All this pales in comparison to the pain when using my MOTU audio interface. Getting it to work was an enormous pain in the ass thanks to Apple security. And then MacOS would randomly decide to break things every 6-12 months, and getting it to work again requires discovering an arcane NVRAM reset procedure using magic key presses during reboot.
    - dagmx 4y ago
      All of that is irrelevant to both my response and the person I was replying to where we were talking about coding specifically.
    - pxc 4y ago
      > I mean, are Steam and Firaxis not "trusted developers". Does 'app from a trusted developer' mean something other than 'app from the app store, or from someone you've specifically allowlisted'?
      - dagmx 4y ago
        It just means the app is not signed+notarized. They don’t necessarily need to be from the App Store, but they do need to be notarized. If they’re not, the warning can be bypassed.
speedgoose 4y ago
The latest system preferences are an improvement to me. It was a mess before and it’s still a mess but the app layout makes it easier to browse, and at least it’s consistent with iOS.
- worthless-trash 4y ago
  I am however, not using IOS.
- lanna 4y ago
  Why does a desktop OS need to be consistent with a 5" touchscreen phone?
  - speedgoose 4y ago
    To improve the user experience of the many Apple customers deciding to buy an old fashioned Mac.
    - einherjae 4y ago
      The very argument that was presented when iOS first came out, as well as whenever touchscreens on MacBooks come up, is that the UX is fundamentally different. So why would it suddenly be a good idea to import this from iOS?
      - speedgoose 4y ago
        Perhaps the people against touchscreen on MacOS finally retired or gave up the fight, so Apple is slowly preparing what Microsoft did years ago with Windows 8.
        philistine 4y ago
        What Microsoft did, and still hasn’t finished. System preferences still contain massive amount of details contained in Windows 7 (and older!) style windows. At least Apple managed to move all their settings from one paradigm to the next in one year. I’m looking forward to the improvements they make to the app in the future.
elcapitan 4y ago
Those are the first system preferences on macOS that are usable to me, and I'm not even a big iOS fan. The chaotic version before felt like Windows to me.
- luckman212 4y ago
  Say what you will about the new version, but the old version of System Preferences was certainly not "chaotic". I found it very pleasant to look at and navigate. This new thing violates much of Apple's own HIG, and despite running Ventura for half a year, I still find myself hunting for things that should be easy to find. Quick: where do you go to turn the volume menubar control on or off?
  - elcapitan 4y ago
    I type "volume" in the search field and pick the right option?
    - wpm 4y ago
      Now do it with a cup of coffee in one hand and a mouse in the other.
      - elcapitan 4y ago
        Maybe they should make special operating systems just for people who constantly hold something in their one hand while clicking around with the other.
- garyrob 4y ago
  I agree. In the old SP I usually used spotlight to find what I wanted as quickly as possible. Now, I usually still do. The practical difference is negligible. I have no trouble finding the settings I want to modify, and a rarely have a need to modify any. My response is similar for the other complaints I see here. I can ignore new features I don't like. I've got integration with my phone and watch that took zero effort. No need to waste time on drivers, etc. If I want to run Photoshop I can. (I've used Macs since the original Mac Plus with one one-year Windows interlude. For servers I use Linux, which is obviously appropriate for that use.)
web3-is-a-scam 4y ago
Seems overblown to me, been a macos user for over a decade and the ios-ification o f the mac hasn't been a big deal for me. My greybeard workflows still work the same (everything in iterm, using vim, tmux, all the "standard stuff"), sometimes updating xcode is a pain but w/e. Homebrew still chugging along. Parallels is fantastic. Performance of the M1 Max on my new mac studio is just heavenly. The changes to macos have been nowhere near as egregious as what MS is butchering windows with. The latest update added "Stage Manager" or whatever, tried it out for an hour...didn't really like it and turned it off, it never gets in my way trying to force itself on my like Windows does with all of its anti-features. People complain about system preferences but I use spotlight to find settings when I need them, which works great - and once a setting is set I rarely change it. I don't think I've touched the preferences "app" since I initially setup my mac studio. The moaning and groaning about how bad it is just seems so.....pointless to me.
- jamesgill 4y ago
  * People complain about system preferences but I use spotlight to find settings when I need them* This is exactly how I do it, and I also do it this way in Ubuntu. And in both OSes, I hide docks/apps.
  - giardini 4y ago
    Ubuntu has spotlight?
    - stametseater 4y ago
      I'm sure you already know it doesn't contain spotlight itself, which belongs to Apple. There exist equivalents that have exactly that same functionality as described above. I don't know what GNOME uses, but KDE's krunner searches system settings, user files and applications, bookmarks, browser tabs, solves arithmetic and unit conversions, does spell checking, searches the web, searches active windows, applications and workspaces, etc.. It's configurable with many plugins available. I expect GNOME's system works similarly.
    - 4y ago
zitterbewegung 4y ago
As time goes in from 10.5 System preferences UI kept on degrading to the point that I didn't know what icon to click and frequently just made the search bar for everything. Having the search bar more prominent and making the UI standard for all of the other products probably is a good idea.
sys_64738 4y ago
> An example is the latest System Preferences. It's virtually unusable. Most people are familiar with the iOS model already. It's rare to find Mac users who aren't.
- lapcat 4y ago
  It's a bad model, because the iPhone Settings app itself is bad. The order is seemingly random. You can't reorder, pin favorites, or hide unwanted settings. Many things are buried deep in hierarchies. Not to mention that iPhone Settings is based on a small, non-resizable window and a touch interface, neither of which are true of the Mac. Familiar crap is still crap.

rasengan 4y ago

Apple ecosystem is no longer software - only apps. It’s hard to do(code) normal things on the OS because of all of the fancy “security”

dagmx 4y ago
What code is prevented by security? Other than limits to kexts, your code isn’t beholden to most of the system security changes unless you specifically opt in to make a sandboxed app.
- runjake 4y ago
  Your code is certainly “beholden” to most of the system security changes, and your app is effectively sandboxes regardless of your wishes. Source: Self after working on anti-theft software for macOS, for a few years now.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    Your app is not beholden to sandboxing unless you specifically are using sandboxing as part of your application configuration. It would also only apply to app bundles. I can make a command line tool or a standalone Qt application right now without having sandboxing pop up at all. Even for access that the OS protects the user from, as an app developer I rarely need to think about it. When I try and access a limited area it asks the user for me. Source: self after working on lots of varied code bases from web dev to 3D libraries and standalone applications for over a decade.
- kagakuninja 4y ago
  I have to deal with refusal to install apps from "untrusted developers" constantly, I can't even believe you wrote that. For starters, the UI experience is terrible. You get a dialog telling you you can't install an app; close the dialog then you have to know to go to a certain Settings tab under Privacy & Security, and there will (hopefully) be some text that allows you to enable the app. This is a UI disaster. Maybe they do it so that non-technical users will give up in frustration. Once MacOS decided that my official Oracle JRE was "untrusted", and I would get the bullshit dialog every time I started a Java process (note: I develop apps using the JVM). I had to google to learn some arcane CLI magic to disable the untrusted bits on my JRE files. More recently, I couldn't get CIV 6 to run. Instead of telling you what to do, you get a "app is corrupted" dialog (maybe this was the fault of Steam). This required multiple enabling via the magic permissions tab. I mean, are Steam and Firaxis not "trusted developers". All this pales in comparison to the pain when using my MOTU audio interface. Getting it to work was an enormous pain in the ass thanks to Apple security. And then MacOS would randomly decide to break things every 6-12 months, and getting it to work again requires discovering an arcane NVRAM reset procedure using magic key presses during reboot.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    All of that is irrelevant to both my response and the person I was replying to where we were talking about coding specifically.
  - pxc 4y ago
    > I mean, are Steam and Firaxis not "trusted developers". Does 'app from a trusted developer' mean something other than 'app from the app store, or from someone you've specifically allowlisted'?
    - dagmx 4y ago
      It just means the app is not signed+notarized. They don’t necessarily need to be from the App Store, but they do need to be notarized. If they’re not, the warning can be bypassed.

speedgoose 4y ago

The latest system preferences are an improvement to me. It was a mess before and it’s still a mess but the app layout makes it easier to browse, and at least it’s consistent with iOS.

worthless-trash 4y ago
I am however, not using IOS.
lanna 4y ago
Why does a desktop OS need to be consistent with a 5" touchscreen phone?
- speedgoose 4y ago
  To improve the user experience of the many Apple customers deciding to buy an old fashioned Mac.
  - einherjae 4y ago
    The very argument that was presented when iOS first came out, as well as whenever touchscreens on MacBooks come up, is that the UX is fundamentally different. So why would it suddenly be a good idea to import this from iOS?
    - speedgoose 4y ago
      Perhaps the people against touchscreen on MacOS finally retired or gave up the fight, so Apple is slowly preparing what Microsoft did years ago with Windows 8.
      - philistine 4y ago
        What Microsoft did, and still hasn’t finished. System preferences still contain massive amount of details contained in Windows 7 (and older!) style windows. At least Apple managed to move all their settings from one paradigm to the next in one year. I’m looking forward to the improvements they make to the app in the future.

elcapitan 4y ago

Those are the first system preferences on macOS that are usable to me, and I'm not even a big iOS fan. The chaotic version before felt like Windows to me.

luckman212 4y ago
Say what you will about the new version, but the old version of System Preferences was certainly not "chaotic". I found it very pleasant to look at and navigate. This new thing violates much of Apple's own HIG, and despite running Ventura for half a year, I still find myself hunting for things that should be easy to find. Quick: where do you go to turn the volume menubar control on or off?
- elcapitan 4y ago
  I type "volume" in the search field and pick the right option?
  - wpm 4y ago
    Now do it with a cup of coffee in one hand and a mouse in the other.
    - elcapitan 4y ago
      Maybe they should make special operating systems just for people who constantly hold something in their one hand while clicking around with the other.
garyrob 4y ago
I agree. In the old SP I usually used spotlight to find what I wanted as quickly as possible. Now, I usually still do. The practical difference is negligible. I have no trouble finding the settings I want to modify, and a rarely have a need to modify any. My response is similar for the other complaints I see here. I can ignore new features I don't like. I've got integration with my phone and watch that took zero effort. No need to waste time on drivers, etc. If I want to run Photoshop I can. (I've used Macs since the original Mac Plus with one one-year Windows interlude. For servers I use Linux, which is obviously appropriate for that use.)

web3-is-a-scam 4y ago

Seems overblown to me, been a macos user for over a decade and the ios-ification o f the mac hasn't been a big deal for me. My greybeard workflows still work the same (everything in iterm, using vim, tmux, all the "standard stuff"), sometimes updating xcode is a pain but w/e. Homebrew still chugging along. Parallels is fantastic. Performance of the M1 Max on my new mac studio is just heavenly. The changes to macos have been nowhere near as egregious as what MS is butchering windows with. The latest update added "Stage Manager" or whatever, tried it out for an hour...didn't really like it and turned it off, it never gets in my way trying to force itself on my like Windows does with all of its anti-features. People complain about system preferences but I use spotlight to find settings when I need them, which works great - and once a setting is set I rarely change it. I don't think I've touched the preferences "app" since I initially setup my mac studio. The moaning and groaning about how bad it is just seems so.....pointless to me.

jamesgill 4y ago
* People complain about system preferences but I use spotlight to find settings when I need them* This is exactly how I do it, and I also do it this way in Ubuntu. And in both OSes, I hide docks/apps.
- giardini 4y ago
  Ubuntu has spotlight?
  - stametseater 4y ago
    I'm sure you already know it doesn't contain spotlight itself, which belongs to Apple. There exist equivalents that have exactly that same functionality as described above. I don't know what GNOME uses, but KDE's krunner searches system settings, user files and applications, bookmarks, browser tabs, solves arithmetic and unit conversions, does spell checking, searches the web, searches active windows, applications and workspaces, etc.. It's configurable with many plugins available. I expect GNOME's system works similarly.
  - 4y ago

zitterbewegung 4y ago

As time goes in from 10.5 System preferences UI kept on degrading to the point that I didn't know what icon to click and frequently just made the search bar for everything. Having the search bar more prominent and making the UI standard for all of the other products probably is a good idea.

sys_64738 4y ago

> An example is the latest System Preferences. It's virtually unusable. Most people are familiar with the iOS model already. It's rare to find Mac users who aren't.

lapcat 4y ago
It's a bad model, because the iPhone Settings app itself is bad. The order is seemingly random. You can't reorder, pin favorites, or hide unwanted settings. Many things are buried deep in hierarchies. Not to mention that iPhone Settings is based on a small, non-resizable window and a touch interface, neither of which are true of the Mac. Familiar crap is still crap.