9 ms·

Salary Negotiations, Don’t be Tough, be Honest

83 points by jnorthrop 15y ago

aurelianito 15y ago
But a lot of times the other part is not being honest nor nice. See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3521817 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3521817 for an example. I believe in tit-for-tit. Why should a potential employee be upfront when the employer is not upfront?
- JCraig 15y ago
  I believe that Jeff addresses this point in such areas as: Honestly, I haven’t tried it but I imagine it leaves the risk of getting a relationship off on the wrong foot. And, at the end of the day, a large part of your job satisfaction relies on the relationship between you and your manager. If I had the feeling that my prospective employer was being dishonest, first I would try to find other employment. And if I couldn't at the time, I would build a bit extra into my request for compensation. Sure, sometimes extra money is worth less satisfaction at work. Usually, however, I'd like both fair compensation and a positive working environment. Also, I don't want every decision at my job to be a matter of stating extreme options then settling for the commonsense one. I'd rather start with a sensible solution, whether it be in salary negotiations or in project responsibilities and timelines.
- m0nty 15y ago
  Personally, I would not work for anyone who wasn't being honest with me, but I'm a bit old and gnarly like that. I believe integrity to be one of the key ingredients in any work relationship, and I regret all the time I've wasted working for and with people who lack it. Conversely, honest people are always a pleasure to work for. The last job interview I went to, I took with me the attitude that "if this job isn't exactly right for me, I will say so and politely walk away." I put on the table what I wanted to do, what my aspirations were, and how much money I wanted. I made sure I was scrupulously polite and scrupulously honest. It helped with the negotiations, and it helped now I've started the job - it removes a lot of the confusion about my role, because we agreed it in advance. (I've found too many people seem to think "sys admin" or "programmer" means "general-purpose IT skivvy", which is another thing which ruins the work experience for me. It still happens, but less so because of the prior agreement.) Still, things aren't 100% perfect, but I feel the way I conducted the interview for this job is one I will use again, whether it be full-time employment, freelance or contract work: be honest, be polite, and be prepared to walk away.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    "I would not work for anyone who wasn't being honest with me". The big point in the earlier discussion this week was that you don't know if the other party is being honest. They can do background checks on you, credit checks, employment history checks, etc (with your consent of course), but you have no idea about their background. With public companies you can read some info about them, but it's not personal, nor does it go in to departmental politics and budgets and such. A potential employer saying "our hands are tied, we can only go up to $75k for this position" may be telling the truth, or they may be lying. You can't tell the difference. That was the gist of the earlier posts. "Be prepared to walk away" is core negotiating advice for any commitment - marriage, car purchase, job search, housing, etc. Not having the guts to walk away means you will make decisions based out of fear, rather than out of a position of strength.
    - m0nty 15y ago
      > "our hands are tied, we can only go up to $75k for this position" If I needed $80k, I would then say "I'm sorry, but I have expenses to pay, a family to keep. I can't work for less than $80k." If he insisted, that's when I would shake hands and walk. It wouldn't matter, in fact, if he was being honest or not. That's my limit. In this case, it's no different to bidding on eBay: I have $80 for this purchase, if it goes higher I will maintain self-discipline and drop out of the auction.
      - mgkimsal 15y ago
        The overwhelming majority of people won't just walk away. They get hyped up in to 'negotiations' and start panicing if they can't get what they want/need. It's less so in the IT world right now, but in most other fields, there's much higher unemployment. People don't "just walk away", and often accept a situation that doesn't fit their wants/needs, because needing income ends up trumping everything else. For someone not in IT right now, who needed a job, they're at a strong disadvantage because of the information imbalance during interviews. Congrats on you being a rather rare individual who actually does what is recommended (walk away) - most people don't. And it comes back to not being able to tell if the other side is lying. And in some cases, being desperate enough to work for/with someone who they suspect or know is lying, but needing the job bad enough.
PaulHoule 15y ago
I like not giving a number. It makes the other guy squirm. He's worried not just that you'll get more chips, but that the whole deal that he's worked hard to put together will fall through. If you throw some number out at this point, they can just work you down. If they throw out a number, you can typically work up, and if the number they give is way too small you understand what you're dealing with.
- bluedevil2k 15y ago
  That's counter to all proven negotiating strategy. Studies show the person who throws out the first number creates an anchor point, and the final number always ends up closer to the first number than the desired number of the second person. You say "We can work up" and "they can work you down" - you'd much rather be worked down from a high number than work up from a low number.
- badclient 15y ago
  you can typically work up It is hard to work up more than 15-25%. if the number they give is way too small you understand what you're dealing with This is where stating the number first can help you. Companies don't necessarily know your value and can't usually tell just from your resume. So when you are so far apart, you are suggesting the company just sucks. It could be that they just don't know what you're worth. Bottomline: If a company has $70,000 set aside for the position, if you ask for $120,000 before they tell you the $70,000, you have a better shot than after they have shared and associated $70,000 with you.
  - kls 15y ago
    I agree, I always put the number out there, and it is always top of market + 20%. Doing so sets the stage for accepting nothing less than top of market. I am willing to go to 90% of top of market so it gives them 30% to feel like they got a deal. I have seen that most try to slice 10% to 15% off of my request because they too have researched what the top of market rate is.
    - tnicola 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
bluedevil2k 15y ago
One little quick thing I've learned over the years, the more HR is involved, the more likely it is that you'll be mislead and deceived.
- gaius 15y ago
  Human resources look at you like you look at a server.
barrkel 15y ago
This also depends on the nature of the organization you're negotiating with. The people first asking about your current salary / expectations of salary in a larger organization will often be from HR, collecting information that they'll feed up the organization, probably your boss-to-be's boss. The higher up this goes, the harder the heads are at negotiation; frequently, your boss-to-be, at the salary negotiation level, is just a go-between. He'll have an expected budget, but to push higher he'll have to go to his own boss, and that dynamic favours the company rather than the employee. You need to balance the risk of getting off on the wrong foot, with the potential that you can be leaving a lot of money on the table - I mean, on the order of quarter of a million to half a million dollars over the course of your stay with that company is quite likely if you don't negotiate well - not to mention a bitterness that can grow over time. And switching jobs may not even be a cure here; if it's a job you enjoy, it's not much fun having to leave it in order to get your worth on the market. It's best to get both.
- kls 15y ago
  frequently, your boss-to-be, at the salary negotiation level, is just a go-between. At most larger corps this is very true, I was a VP at a large company and I would project my personnel need, I would also give a top end salary, which I would provide as market + 10%. From there I never heard about salary, I gave a go no go on hiring and HR worked out salary. It is a pattern that I have seen a good deal in larger orgs.
DanielBMarkham 15y ago
Negotiating does not have to be adversarial, but it has to be negotiating. That means both sides are willing to walk away amicably from the table. If you're not willing to walk away, you're not negotiating -- you're just having a conversation about salary. You've already decided you're staying; the only thing being decided is how much money your feelings are worth. Not a good spot to be in, for either you or your boss. I like this author's advice to do a lot of research beforehand and have a realistic idea of where the market is. You should also have a realistic idea of what it would cost to replace you -- probably much more than market salary for a similar job. You need to have an honest -- and fun -- conversation about rates. To start that conversation, you need to be clear with your boss that the starting point is your leaving to find a better job. (But this must be a true statement!) Given that starting point, you both talk and share information about how to reach an agreement you both like. Yes, the emotional part is the worst. That's why you make those tough emotional decisions before you walk in the door. It's also why you give your boss plenty of time to step back and think through things dispassionately as well. Coming in half-assed, with aggressive demands, is a good way to get fired. Coming in well-studied, with no pressure and just trying not to rock the boat, is a good way to stay at the same job and salary for the rest of your life. You have to learn the art of working between these two extremes. It has always amazed me the lack of education we provide people in negotiation. It's the one business-related practical life skill that nobody can do without.
- WillyF 15y ago
  I don't think that both sides have to be willing to walk away for it to be a negotiation. Both sides just have to believe that the other side is willing to walk away.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- officemonkey 15y ago
  Twenty years ago I read "Getting to Yes" (http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-Without/dp/0143118757 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-With...) before I had to negotiate something I really wanted. The skills I learned in that book has helped me every subsequent job I've ever had. Much of the periodic blogosphere churning about salary negotiation should be eliminated by just posting links to this book. I'm shocked that the book is not required reading for EVERYONE in the job market.
nhangen 15y ago
I'm in an interesting position because I just negotiated a raise, and am also negotiating with candidates for an upcoming hire. I earned my raise by first earning it in effort, but when it came time for the negotiation I know without a doubt that if I hadn't made it clear I was willing to walk away, I wouldn't have received the raise. The boss thought he could appease me with talks on potential numbers, but I stood my ground and said that I needed an answer within 24 hours. It wasn't until I, politely of course, demanded a yes or no that I received a yes. Now, in the hiring process, I have a limited amount of money available to pay a new employee. I may be able to get another 10%, but not much more than that. I do ask candidates to offer a number, not to screw them on salary but to know how apart we are. If we're 20k apart, why should I waste their time stringing them along?
- prophetjohn 15y ago
  If getting the potential employee to offer a number is genuinely, purely in the interest of not stringing them along, why don't you offer the first number? "This is the salary allocated for the position. Is this a salary you would be comfortable with?" Now you have a way to both not string them along if you're $20K apart and to not let them accidentally undervalue their own worth by a significant amount.
alexwolfe 15y ago
Harvard Law School's free course on negotiations. Covers all aspects of negotiations. http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=379064206 http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcas...
jroseattle 15y ago
I've found, more often than not, when a company takes a hard negotiating position upfront with engineers, it ultimately proves to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Many times, what a company "saves" in negotiations is immaterial relative to the hiree's compensation. In exchange, the company immediately begins a relationship with an engineer on a sour note and sends a huge signal about company loyalties and values. I'd recruited an engineer to join my team, and he tells me his comp requirements (90K salary). For the position, we budgeted 96k. A stellar engineer and ideal team fit, I thought he was underpaid at that, but that's what he asked for so I prepared an offer. In preparation, the CEO (who signed off on such things) sets our initial offer to 85K. I was surprised -- why would we not offer the candidate 90k salary? The conversation went something like this: CEO: Offer him 85K. Me: Why? He asked for 90K, and we've budgeted 96K. CEO: I want to leave some room for negotiation. Me: Room? CEO: Yeah. I think we can get him to come down from 90K. Me: You haven't met him yet. Why do you believe he would accept a lower offer? CEO: I never take the first offer at face value. Me: I've talked to him, and he earns 90K in his current position. He doesn't want to take a pay cut. CEO: Well, let's see how much he wants this job. I make the offer, and the candidate responds "I don't want to take a pay cut, and can't accept your offer." The back-and-forth begins, and we finally come to agreement -- at 90K. And while the engineer accepted and joined our team, I could tell that the offer negotiation made him uncomfortable and left a bad taste in his mouth. He did a great job for well over a year, until he left for a new position. He explained to me that he received a better offer, and that the other company was "more inviting". After his departure, the CEO lamented how engineers seem to have no loyalty. Indeed.
- lincolnq 15y ago
  This is a great story. It illustrates everything perfectly: Why, as employee, you're probably getting played and that you should ask for more money. Why, as employer, it's advantageous to be magnanimous and not lowball the employee. And it illustrates the power imbalance.
  - jroseattle 15y ago
    Very prudent. I try to be as straight-forward as I can with candidates, and I insist on honesty from both sides. As a side note, I originally wanted to offer the candidate 96K because I knew he was worth it (more, actually.) But, the CEO decided to press on an engineer who wasn't all that driven by money. A phenomenally poor decision. I resigned from my position at a later date, and our hiring practices were not without consideration.
tptacek 15y ago
A worrisome mentality in the post and in some comments here: the words "should" and "shouldn't", the concept of "fair", "feeling sorry" for people who have to negotiate, the word "ridiculous". I think you should be careful with sentiment analysis on a forum like HN. This place is overwhelmingly populated with people for whom the concept of salary negotiation is repellant. One could get a seriously skewed idea of what to expect from negotiations from comments on HN. The fact is, a huge number of places that you'd actually want to work at are going to treat salary negotiation as the business transaction that it is. Not taking the transaction seriously is going to cost you thousands and thousands of dollars. It's true: the worst places to work will be the ones who are most aggressive about negotiation. But that observation totally misses Patrick's point. You don't have to get screwed by a hard-nosed negotiation to lose out on thousands of dollars of comp. In fact, if you don't take negotiation seriously, you'll lose thousands of dollars without even noticing, because your social norms will blind you to what's happening. Patrick isn't just talking about how to handle stupidly tough negotiations. He's talking about all of them, even the nice and friendly ones. The range between your negotiating floor and the employer's negotiating ceiling is the spread. Any dollar figure you accept below their ceiling is a dollar you gave them. From the way people talk about negotiation on HN, my guess is that 9 times out of 10, HN'ers take a number smack in the middle of the spread --- meaning, they've coughed up high 4 digits (and often 5) back to their employer. And they feel good about it! They write blog posts about it! If you think you work on a team where you don't have to negotiate, because everyone's grown-up and knows the score and pays people what they're worth, seriously consider that you may (probably not intentionally, but still) be getting played.
- badclient 15y ago
  You've probably answered it elsewhere but I'd be interested in your take on whether I, the candidate, should state a number when asked.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Everyone will ask for your current salary (it genuinely simplifies job interviews), but don't supply it; disclosing your current salary begs for an offer of that + 5-10%. As for naming any number first, meh? If you give a number first, you'll be negotiating your salary down from it; if the employer names a number first, you'll be negotiating up from that. You might prefer the theoretically unlimited upside of the latter. On the other hand, loss aversion is more powerful than gain seeking, making downward concessions harder won.
johngalt 15y ago
Don't use honesty as an excuse for letting someone pick your pocket. Here's what happens when Mr. Niceguy mentions his requirements first. You: I'm looking for $90k Boss: Oh I think we can get you there, we start everyone at $70k then adjust based on performance. Perform well and you'll get there (you won't). You: Oh, well I'd prefer $90k to start, and the position is worth $90k. Boss: We don't make exceptions, and you don't really meet requirements X and Y for the position. But we'd like to give you a chance to learn here. You: No I really deserve 90k, I might go 85k with the proper benefits. Boss: Ok so will start you at 75k, and our normal benefits package of barely subsidized medical/401k/2-weeks vacation is easily worth 10k. Glad we could come to an aggreement. You can be tough and honest. Negotiation isn't about being dishonest. You can negoatiate very well and be honest the whole time.
- Symmetry 15y ago
  Presumably then Mr. Niceguy then walks out the door, if he was actually being honest about requiring 90k.
artsrc 15y ago
This is a game which is in general one sided. The employer knows more, and has less stake in this deal (more market power). A one sided information delivery from you essentially makes you even less powerful. The only way this works is if your boss decides to be fair or good for you for their own reasons.
publicus 15y ago
Work with a recruiter, get lots of offers, let them bid the salary up, then take the best offer/job. It's really that simple.
chrisbennet 15y ago
Remember companies need you in order to make money. I had lunch with a guy I used to work with the other day and he was telling me that he was having a horrible time finding engineers to even come in for an interview. This is north of Boston, not Silicon Valley either. Good engineers have more options now than we're accustomed to. When a recruiter/HR person/interviewer asks you about your salary requirements, ask them what sort of engineer they are looking for: A) average (you don't want to work there) B) above average or C) way above average If they answer "way above average" you can say "Well, there is your answer!" When a company doesn't want to pay much, its a signal that they don't place much value on engineers.

83 points by jnorthrop 15y ago

But a lot of times the other part is not being honest nor nice. See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3521817 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3521817 for an example. I believe in tit-for-tit. Why should a potential employee be upfront when the employer is not upfront?

JCraig 15y ago
I believe that Jeff addresses this point in such areas as: Honestly, I haven’t tried it but I imagine it leaves the risk of getting a relationship off on the wrong foot. And, at the end of the day, a large part of your job satisfaction relies on the relationship between you and your manager. If I had the feeling that my prospective employer was being dishonest, first I would try to find other employment. And if I couldn't at the time, I would build a bit extra into my request for compensation. Sure, sometimes extra money is worth less satisfaction at work. Usually, however, I'd like both fair compensation and a positive working environment. Also, I don't want every decision at my job to be a matter of stating extreme options then settling for the commonsense one. I'd rather start with a sensible solution, whether it be in salary negotiations or in project responsibilities and timelines.
m0nty 15y ago
Personally, I would not work for anyone who wasn't being honest with me, but I'm a bit old and gnarly like that. I believe integrity to be one of the key ingredients in any work relationship, and I regret all the time I've wasted working for and with people who lack it. Conversely, honest people are always a pleasure to work for. The last job interview I went to, I took with me the attitude that "if this job isn't exactly right for me, I will say so and politely walk away." I put on the table what I wanted to do, what my aspirations were, and how much money I wanted. I made sure I was scrupulously polite and scrupulously honest. It helped with the negotiations, and it helped now I've started the job - it removes a lot of the confusion about my role, because we agreed it in advance. (I've found too many people seem to think "sys admin" or "programmer" means "general-purpose IT skivvy", which is another thing which ruins the work experience for me. It still happens, but less so because of the prior agreement.) Still, things aren't 100% perfect, but I feel the way I conducted the interview for this job is one I will use again, whether it be full-time employment, freelance or contract work: be honest, be polite, and be prepared to walk away.
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  "I would not work for anyone who wasn't being honest with me". The big point in the earlier discussion this week was that you don't know if the other party is being honest. They can do background checks on you, credit checks, employment history checks, etc (with your consent of course), but you have no idea about their background. With public companies you can read some info about them, but it's not personal, nor does it go in to departmental politics and budgets and such. A potential employer saying "our hands are tied, we can only go up to $75k for this position" may be telling the truth, or they may be lying. You can't tell the difference. That was the gist of the earlier posts. "Be prepared to walk away" is core negotiating advice for any commitment - marriage, car purchase, job search, housing, etc. Not having the guts to walk away means you will make decisions based out of fear, rather than out of a position of strength.
  - m0nty 15y ago
    > "our hands are tied, we can only go up to $75k for this position" If I needed $80k, I would then say "I'm sorry, but I have expenses to pay, a family to keep. I can't work for less than $80k." If he insisted, that's when I would shake hands and walk. It wouldn't matter, in fact, if he was being honest or not. That's my limit. In this case, it's no different to bidding on eBay: I have $80 for this purchase, if it goes higher I will maintain self-discipline and drop out of the auction.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      The overwhelming majority of people won't just walk away. They get hyped up in to 'negotiations' and start panicing if they can't get what they want/need. It's less so in the IT world right now, but in most other fields, there's much higher unemployment. People don't "just walk away", and often accept a situation that doesn't fit their wants/needs, because needing income ends up trumping everything else. For someone not in IT right now, who needed a job, they're at a strong disadvantage because of the information imbalance during interviews. Congrats on you being a rather rare individual who actually does what is recommended (walk away) - most people don't. And it comes back to not being able to tell if the other side is lying. And in some cases, being desperate enough to work for/with someone who they suspect or know is lying, but needing the job bad enough.

PaulHoule 15y ago

I like not giving a number. It makes the other guy squirm. He's worried not just that you'll get more chips, but that the whole deal that he's worked hard to put together will fall through. If you throw some number out at this point, they can just work you down. If they throw out a number, you can typically work up, and if the number they give is way too small you understand what you're dealing with.

bluedevil2k 15y ago
That's counter to all proven negotiating strategy. Studies show the person who throws out the first number creates an anchor point, and the final number always ends up closer to the first number than the desired number of the second person. You say "We can work up" and "they can work you down" - you'd much rather be worked down from a high number than work up from a low number.
badclient 15y ago
you can typically work up It is hard to work up more than 15-25%. if the number they give is way too small you understand what you're dealing with This is where stating the number first can help you. Companies don't necessarily know your value and can't usually tell just from your resume. So when you are so far apart, you are suggesting the company just sucks. It could be that they just don't know what you're worth. Bottomline: If a company has $70,000 set aside for the position, if you ask for $120,000 before they tell you the $70,000, you have a better shot than after they have shared and associated $70,000 with you.
- kls 15y ago
  I agree, I always put the number out there, and it is always top of market + 20%. Doing so sets the stage for accepting nothing less than top of market. I am willing to go to 90% of top of market so it gives them 30% to feel like they got a deal. I have seen that most try to slice 10% to 15% off of my request because they too have researched what the top of market rate is.
  - tnicola 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

bluedevil2k 15y ago

One little quick thing I've learned over the years, the more HR is involved, the more likely it is that you'll be mislead and deceived.

gaius 15y ago
Human resources look at you like you look at a server.

barrkel 15y ago

This also depends on the nature of the organization you're negotiating with. The people first asking about your current salary / expectations of salary in a larger organization will often be from HR, collecting information that they'll feed up the organization, probably your boss-to-be's boss. The higher up this goes, the harder the heads are at negotiation; frequently, your boss-to-be, at the salary negotiation level, is just a go-between. He'll have an expected budget, but to push higher he'll have to go to his own boss, and that dynamic favours the company rather than the employee. You need to balance the risk of getting off on the wrong foot, with the potential that you can be leaving a lot of money on the table - I mean, on the order of quarter of a million to half a million dollars over the course of your stay with that company is quite likely if you don't negotiate well - not to mention a bitterness that can grow over time. And switching jobs may not even be a cure here; if it's a job you enjoy, it's not much fun having to leave it in order to get your worth on the market. It's best to get both.

kls 15y ago
frequently, your boss-to-be, at the salary negotiation level, is just a go-between. At most larger corps this is very true, I was a VP at a large company and I would project my personnel need, I would also give a top end salary, which I would provide as market + 10%. From there I never heard about salary, I gave a go no go on hiring and HR worked out salary. It is a pattern that I have seen a good deal in larger orgs.

DanielBMarkham 15y ago

Negotiating does not have to be adversarial, but it has to be negotiating. That means both sides are willing to walk away amicably from the table. If you're not willing to walk away, you're not negotiating -- you're just having a conversation about salary. You've already decided you're staying; the only thing being decided is how much money your feelings are worth. Not a good spot to be in, for either you or your boss. I like this author's advice to do a lot of research beforehand and have a realistic idea of where the market is. You should also have a realistic idea of what it would cost to replace you -- probably much more than market salary for a similar job. You need to have an honest -- and fun -- conversation about rates. To start that conversation, you need to be clear with your boss that the starting point is your leaving to find a better job. (But this must be a true statement!) Given that starting point, you both talk and share information about how to reach an agreement you both like. Yes, the emotional part is the worst. That's why you make those tough emotional decisions before you walk in the door. It's also why you give your boss plenty of time to step back and think through things dispassionately as well. Coming in half-assed, with aggressive demands, is a good way to get fired. Coming in well-studied, with no pressure and just trying not to rock the boat, is a good way to stay at the same job and salary for the rest of your life. You have to learn the art of working between these two extremes. It has always amazed me the lack of education we provide people in negotiation. It's the one business-related practical life skill that nobody can do without.

WillyF 15y ago
I don't think that both sides have to be willing to walk away for it to be a negotiation. Both sides just have to believe that the other side is willing to walk away.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
officemonkey 15y ago
Twenty years ago I read "Getting to Yes" (http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-Without/dp/0143118757 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-With...) before I had to negotiate something I really wanted. The skills I learned in that book has helped me every subsequent job I've ever had. Much of the periodic blogosphere churning about salary negotiation should be eliminated by just posting links to this book. I'm shocked that the book is not required reading for EVERYONE in the job market.

nhangen 15y ago

I'm in an interesting position because I just negotiated a raise, and am also negotiating with candidates for an upcoming hire. I earned my raise by first earning it in effort, but when it came time for the negotiation I know without a doubt that if I hadn't made it clear I was willing to walk away, I wouldn't have received the raise. The boss thought he could appease me with talks on potential numbers, but I stood my ground and said that I needed an answer within 24 hours. It wasn't until I, politely of course, demanded a yes or no that I received a yes. Now, in the hiring process, I have a limited amount of money available to pay a new employee. I may be able to get another 10%, but not much more than that. I do ask candidates to offer a number, not to screw them on salary but to know how apart we are. If we're 20k apart, why should I waste their time stringing them along?

prophetjohn 15y ago
If getting the potential employee to offer a number is genuinely, purely in the interest of not stringing them along, why don't you offer the first number? "This is the salary allocated for the position. Is this a salary you would be comfortable with?" Now you have a way to both not string them along if you're $20K apart and to not let them accidentally undervalue their own worth by a significant amount.

alexwolfe 15y ago

Harvard Law School's free course on negotiations. Covers all aspects of negotiations. http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=379064206 http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcas...

jroseattle 15y ago

I've found, more often than not, when a company takes a hard negotiating position upfront with engineers, it ultimately proves to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Many times, what a company "saves" in negotiations is immaterial relative to the hiree's compensation. In exchange, the company immediately begins a relationship with an engineer on a sour note and sends a huge signal about company loyalties and values. I'd recruited an engineer to join my team, and he tells me his comp requirements (90K salary). For the position, we budgeted 96k. A stellar engineer and ideal team fit, I thought he was underpaid at that, but that's what he asked for so I prepared an offer. In preparation, the CEO (who signed off on such things) sets our initial offer to 85K. I was surprised -- why would we not offer the candidate 90k salary? The conversation went something like this: CEO: Offer him 85K. Me: Why? He asked for 90K, and we've budgeted 96K. CEO: I want to leave some room for negotiation. Me: Room? CEO: Yeah. I think we can get him to come down from 90K. Me: You haven't met him yet. Why do you believe he would accept a lower offer? CEO: I never take the first offer at face value. Me: I've talked to him, and he earns 90K in his current position. He doesn't want to take a pay cut. CEO: Well, let's see how much he wants this job. I make the offer, and the candidate responds "I don't want to take a pay cut, and can't accept your offer." The back-and-forth begins, and we finally come to agreement -- at 90K. And while the engineer accepted and joined our team, I could tell that the offer negotiation made him uncomfortable and left a bad taste in his mouth. He did a great job for well over a year, until he left for a new position. He explained to me that he received a better offer, and that the other company was "more inviting". After his departure, the CEO lamented how engineers seem to have no loyalty. Indeed.

lincolnq 15y ago
This is a great story. It illustrates everything perfectly: Why, as employee, you're probably getting played and that you should ask for more money. Why, as employer, it's advantageous to be magnanimous and not lowball the employee. And it illustrates the power imbalance.
- jroseattle 15y ago
  Very prudent. I try to be as straight-forward as I can with candidates, and I insist on honesty from both sides. As a side note, I originally wanted to offer the candidate 96K because I knew he was worth it (more, actually.) But, the CEO decided to press on an engineer who wasn't all that driven by money. A phenomenally poor decision. I resigned from my position at a later date, and our hiring practices were not without consideration.

tptacek 15y ago

A worrisome mentality in the post and in some comments here: the words "should" and "shouldn't", the concept of "fair", "feeling sorry" for people who have to negotiate, the word "ridiculous". I think you should be careful with sentiment analysis on a forum like HN. This place is overwhelmingly populated with people for whom the concept of salary negotiation is repellant. One could get a seriously skewed idea of what to expect from negotiations from comments on HN. The fact is, a huge number of places that you'd actually want to work at are going to treat salary negotiation as the business transaction that it is. Not taking the transaction seriously is going to cost you thousands and thousands of dollars. It's true: the worst places to work will be the ones who are most aggressive about negotiation. But that observation totally misses Patrick's point. You don't have to get screwed by a hard-nosed negotiation to lose out on thousands of dollars of comp. In fact, if you don't take negotiation seriously, you'll lose thousands of dollars without even noticing, because your social norms will blind you to what's happening. Patrick isn't just talking about how to handle stupidly tough negotiations. He's talking about all of them, even the nice and friendly ones. The range between your negotiating floor and the employer's negotiating ceiling is the spread. Any dollar figure you accept below their ceiling is a dollar you gave them. From the way people talk about negotiation on HN, my guess is that 9 times out of 10, HN'ers take a number smack in the middle of the spread --- meaning, they've coughed up high 4 digits (and often 5) back to their employer. And they feel good about it! They write blog posts about it! If you think you work on a team where you don't have to negotiate, because everyone's grown-up and knows the score and pays people what they're worth, seriously consider that you may (probably not intentionally, but still) be getting played.

badclient 15y ago
You've probably answered it elsewhere but I'd be interested in your take on whether I, the candidate, should state a number when asked.
- tptacek 15y ago
  Everyone will ask for your current salary (it genuinely simplifies job interviews), but don't supply it; disclosing your current salary begs for an offer of that + 5-10%. As for naming any number first, meh? If you give a number first, you'll be negotiating your salary down from it; if the employer names a number first, you'll be negotiating up from that. You might prefer the theoretically unlimited upside of the latter. On the other hand, loss aversion is more powerful than gain seeking, making downward concessions harder won.

johngalt 15y ago

Don't use honesty as an excuse for letting someone pick your pocket. Here's what happens when Mr. Niceguy mentions his requirements first. You: I'm looking for $90k Boss: Oh I think we can get you there, we start everyone at $70k then adjust based on performance. Perform well and you'll get there (you won't). You: Oh, well I'd prefer $90k to start, and the position is worth $90k. Boss: We don't make exceptions, and you don't really meet requirements X and Y for the position. But we'd like to give you a chance to learn here. You: No I really deserve 90k, I might go 85k with the proper benefits. Boss: Ok so will start you at 75k, and our normal benefits package of barely subsidized medical/401k/2-weeks vacation is easily worth 10k. Glad we could come to an aggreement. You can be tough and honest. Negotiation isn't about being dishonest. You can negoatiate very well and be honest the whole time.

Symmetry 15y ago
Presumably then Mr. Niceguy then walks out the door, if he was actually being honest about requiring 90k.

artsrc 15y ago

This is a game which is in general one sided. The employer knows more, and has less stake in this deal (more market power). A one sided information delivery from you essentially makes you even less powerful. The only way this works is if your boss decides to be fair or good for you for their own reasons.

publicus 15y ago

Work with a recruiter, get lots of offers, let them bid the salary up, then take the best offer/job. It's really that simple.

chrisbennet 15y ago

Remember companies need you in order to make money. I had lunch with a guy I used to work with the other day and he was telling me that he was having a horrible time finding engineers to even come in for an interview. This is north of Boston, not Silicon Valley either. Good engineers have more options now than we're accustomed to. When a recruiter/HR person/interviewer asks you about your salary requirements, ask them what sort of engineer they are looking for: A) average (you don't want to work there) B) above average or C) way above average If they answer "way above average" you can say "Well, there is your answer!" When a company doesn't want to pay much, its a signal that they don't place much value on engineers.