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10 days fasting and calcium/vit d supplements increases bone mineral density
- king-geedorah 4y agoInteresting and unexpected results. Also aptly timed as over a billion people will be fasting within the week for the next month as ramadan begins.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- alecst 4y agoAbsolutely unexpected. A clarification though, which maybe you were aware of: the fasting period studied is no eating for 10 days straight, not intermittent fasting Ramadan-style. Given how counterintuitive this result is, I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that intermittent fasting has the same effect.
- tempsy 4y agoNot really unexpected Prolonged fasting is known to increase growth hormone production Growth hormone promotes growth of bones and cartilage
- guelo 4y agoMuslims that I know tend to gorge themselves every night for iftar. I would expect the body's reaction to be completely different than the 10 day fast studied here.
- alsaffar 4y agoUnfortunately this is very true. The intention I feel is to rest the body during Ramadan, eat only what you need, maybe a bit less to actually feel hunger, become more spiritual, etc. But where I am, it is literally the opposite; people make huge feasts, with round two being sweets and dessert. EVERY SINGLE DAY. Add to that the lack of motion and activity and at 30 days we’ve put on 10 kg. Sorry to put this under your comment xD
- WalterSear 4y agoThat's not fasting. It's intermittent fasting: You never enter the fasting state.
- patrulek 4y agoIts not really unexpected. One could also think that building muscles during high caloric restriction diet/pure fasting is impossible but growth hormone works wonders for that.
- alecst 4y agoLink to open manuscript: https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/271131/1-s2.0-S8756328221X00117/1-s2.0-S875632822100380X/am.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEIr%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJHMEUCICyRhLZCkXcWFJgGnSxy729QPGfYfw7mvVsTpqR47G%2BVAiEA%2B6lWVO5CGOidp6esUFoKXe2gKmLtmq5jDIqY0qLWMrgqswUIUxAFGgwwNTkwMDM1NDY4NjUiDGsoI%2FATvqV%2FWnwhByqQBYKwpZyLVyYyVCB6y9hVRk3ACWxrsxbALt3YcSavcJ5gTr6rZzDdP24q4R0oR8%2BZSs%2BB4Rt9Zmj%2BG0cKJrycpBbpVJIjfJux0H3gbz%2F9gBGrirfFEDBN0HLtuGwSBVUEVjp5ExgUHsqxTOBJnCtGuZ%2FLaofkhYZiEQuCjaTW8QSkxymNHUgdB2Kp8j8w9uESVl5gH48KLv90A%2BaoGKAsWLNMOivy94YIJjgQowMbTL8%2FrN%2F03YPi85%2BWl9BzlHpsTCs9hn%2FwD3RrHEyY9Kn1T3kGqu2%2BGVXkP7LYMmnK9o2hqICAJaLo4EinEIj7T01dFzg48B1irgpBT%2FViL%2BTDgg2MiJjprOlokOlnOTUM4V4mHx3%2BD7my11wrYyDeZMx7J0o4Wh2bMH0SMbH%2BWWScrnMhLf9qq02kXPLdG%2FEuGthvKeQ%2BXUZu8MR5s8Nly73rSM1GbwXteTkbjc6MSXrJiMebyrxgu%2BpEZb6UfBTOTvonAvx8BKPJLVOR%2FEj3blWHEf4yU10XSuqOPYyCom1sXdVAZr%2BRUbRmlqc4tY4r22318nwB2Wo%2F%2Bj34AlVthOU7kd8vc0300uUsphkauAKcnhBFsck1gTBZmvNQ9G7nH4duR9FO4PsRXLnXHxpdmQc7sge8I2Qx2FvFPDBrKe1Qv2mx6dEu3qoZc1sJfhjyzeYM6SnQMx6X0XjNCxiKdtz8alB7r43DD1wGy7p84SPfq4vad6KWFe1hA9GtmAGXlnJyEXapL4DJ1Gg%2Bv7UR2jYCfPwUWQPJO2oCn5RTVO8KtuwMEOtxEbJh24OLWIpRiAwWHxQTLuk5CccxZcFcDa9h6FUHnA0QXpOzK3%2F2xNqv4fhygrrw%2FwCTr%2FVx407dxpuHMPfR2aAGOrEBNFxqOX8GVsLHlv1Z7ThlEiV1XyN%2BkRfrlNEr%2B9dJX%2FHEbzSadaWXznbaw48mnDKhpqOr0t3mToxsE%2F0mWeCbqvpFROU0NS3wovVryfcw2iwzItWKXyH03blHp4ZrhrItm8Y4uBO6EyoOu3c2N1fJvK948qkXiqZ1tfp%2B0k%2FRK%2Byy64FJzAOUg4IqVQS%2FYBC0yLiETxgghStpYTlZn%2BOhijhEjdKiVc6brgPOoDGabQhS&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20230319T031300Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYUA47NBCO%2F20230319%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=27022601dd062b39be9f34fac65b392ca64f060ba11c970b3153ec04cfb0d7ad&hash=1a09f99039574137b0458f9b3cfa304c1b7b209b16a4ca68d16f80bacb18626b&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S875632822100380X&tid=pdf-19b97360-ab46-4890-a817-b63ecb4502c3&sid=8ec0bccf8fc6944434090573d064a049a38dgxrqa&type=client https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/271131/1-s2.0-S875632822...
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoOf note, after a short high calorie period that led to a 7% weight gain.
- alecst 4y agoMy impression was that the weight gain phase was partly to assure that the healthy participants could comfortably lose the weight. They were also taking a small amount of vitamin D. Not sure how much that matters, but it's worth mentioning.
- spoonfeeder006 4y agoJust a heads up that ending a prolonged fast (3+ days) too quickly can cause refeeding syndrome, which can send someone to the ER Also, certain conditions (including but not limited to T2 diabetes) can make fasting like this dangerous. I believe kidney problems are another one
- kubectl_h 4y agoEveryone's body is different, but you would need to be underweight or be severely malnourished to suffer from clinically defined refeeding syndrome after a three day fast. If you are normal to overweight and consuming electrolytes during the fast you are probably going to be fine.
- jl2718 4y agoI had a significant diabetic-like response from refeeding after only 3 days of fairly extreme fasted exercise. A week later my cholesterol rose above 400 and I was producing about 1 gallon of urine per hour. My PCP freaked out over my blood work and called me on a Sunday. I was already quite lean from the start, and planned to go longer, but I was having trouble standing, so I broke the fast, and quickly lost control of my eating. Woke up with swollen purple eyes, pain everywhere. That was many years ago. I’d like to try again with the right mineral support and lower intensity now that I actually have some fat to burn, but I don’t think I have the mental strength or focus for it.
- sacnoradhq 4y agoVitamin D3 + K2 MTK7 (I require 15k IU/day of D3) and calcium citrate (I'm at 1g /day) without adding fashionable diet of the month.
- Asooka 4y ago15k/day is quite a lot. Why do you need that much and how did you determine the dose, if you don't mind me asking?
- canucker2016 4y agoIs the parent getting enough magnesium? Also avoid foods with phytic acid when taking magnesium, since phytic acid may reduce the amount of magnesium and other minerals absorbed by the body. from https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/891683 https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/891683: A review published in The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association found Vitamin D can't be metabolized without sufficient magnesium levels, meaning Vitamin D remains stored and inactive for as many as 50 percent of Americans. "People are taking Vitamin D supplements but don't realize how it gets metabolized. Without magnesium, Vitamin D is not really useful or safe," says study co-author Mohammed S. Razzaque, MBBS, PhD, a professor of pathology at Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine. ... Patients with optimum magnesium levels require less Vitamin D supplementation to achieve sufficient Vitamin D levels. phytic acid: https://www.webmd.com/diet/foods-high-in-phytic-acid https://www.webmd.com/diet/foods-high-in-phytic-acid When you eat foods high in phytic acid, the molecules bind with certain minerals in your digestive tract, including: Calcium Magnesium Iron Zinc Chromium Manganese Once this occurs, your body no longer has access to these nutrients.
- sacnoradhq 4y agoI also take mag citrate: good for GI and kidneys. In higher doses, it's a first-line laxative administered prior to routine surgery.
- sacnoradhq 4y agoPresumptive GI absorption issues and high GI motility. Blood tests confirm my levels are right on the money.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y agoDo not try this at home. Fasting for this long can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y agoPerhaps I am a bit naive, but what is the potential harm in fasting for such a timespan? The point of fat tissue is to maintain the body when calories are not available. Unless starting from a position of anorexia, most people have ample reserves to supply them for such a duration. With medical supervision, one man went over a year without eating[0]. Not a doctor, not medical advice. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast
- franciscop 4y agoAlso not a doctor, but from what I've read for some people it could lead to starvation and death. Basically when you are fasting, your body starts to eat your fat instead, so if you have some underlying disease, or if you are extremely lean, or e.g. a high-maintenance sports person, you are probably at very serious risk. That said, 10 days seems a bit short for death, but yeah if you are in one of those 3 groups (high sports, extreme low fat, or with some disease) I would not take fasting lightly.
- Wolfenstein98k 4y agoRefeeding syndrome as discussed upthread.
- psychphysic 4y agoGood lord! 10 days no calorific intake?
- tertius 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri's_fast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri's_fast
- 462436347 4y ago> Died: 7 September 1990 (aged 50–51) Odd how this part often gets ignored when his example is cited.
- Wolfenstein98k 4y agoWell, he lived for a long time at >200kg (>450lbs), and lost over 120kg (270lbs). It's not a surprise that his lifespan was shorter than average. Given his death was a quarter of a century after he finished his fast, I'm not sure it makes the causal implication you are suggesting.
- 462436347 4y ago> It's not a surprise that his lifespan was shorter than average. Given all of the purported health benefits of fasting I see touted on HN, and given how long he fasted, if anything I'd expect him to have lived to 100.
- StrangeATractor 4y agoWell he would have if he didn't start eating again.
- snapplebobapple 4y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21673486 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21673486 Allegedly health problems from obesity and stomach bleeding killed him. Questionably related to the fast,probably related to the health problems that got him to do the fast in the forst place.
- alecst 4y agoI’m willing to burn my karma on this to push back on some misinformation. Fasting for 10 days is safe. You won’t get refeeding syndrome. Pretty much any person can do it barring obvious exceptions. I’ve done it a bunch of times and I’ve read all the papers. If you think I’m in error please correct me with a citation and I’ll read it.
- jokowueu 4y agoThe is common knowledge with people who have crohn's disease or other Autoimmune diseases. I know a few who do it but generally for one week . Keep your phosphates ( and other electrolytes) normal and don't break the fast with lots of carbs
- spoonfeeder006 4y ago> The underlying causative factor of refeeding syndrome is the metabolic and hormonal changes caused by rapid refeeding > The clinical features of the refeeding syndrome occur as a result of the functional deficits of these electrolytes and the rapid change in basal metabolic rate. > Any patient with negligible food intake for more than five days is at risk of developing refeeding problems https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/
- alecst 4y ago“At risk of refeeding problems” is not the same as refeeding syndrome. This is something that applies to holocaust survivors and hunger strikers.
- franciscop 4y agoI've done few fasts as well, 10 days IMHO is in the limit and you can definitely get refeeding syndrome, but probably just light one. Of the few times I did 7+ days fasts, I only got it once, and that was when I ate a lot for breaking the fast. Which obviously I shouldn't have done in retrospective, and the only symptoms was moderate stomach pain for few hours IIRC. I do agree that at 10 days (YMMV!) you probably don't need those crazy refeeding ramp-ups of broth and soups for 1-2 days then soft foods for another few days, etc, but also don't just stuff yourself until you cannot move! Since you can chose, take a couple of light/easy to digest meals before going back to normal.
- gnicholas 4y ago> The purpose of our study was to evaluate the impact of short-term high-caloric feeding and fasting on bone microarchitecture. We hypothesized that both high-caloric feeding and fasting would have negative effects on microarchitecture. I know it shouldn't have a huge impact on my assessment of a study, but when I see that they were looking for not-x and found x, it makes me feel substantially more confident in the result. It only guarantees that they were not p-hacking, and doesn't have any bearing on other aspects that would affect the validity of the results.
- franciscop 4y agoI came to the comments first assuming there'd be p-hacking (a broad amount of parameters would be tested trying to find some that have "statistical significance", which is bogus and commonly referred as p-hacking). I am a bit tired of seeing very promising articles, becoming hopeful then just to read HN comments on why it's ridiculously flawed (I do get HN tends to be negative, but in scientific articles in a good way, I prefer no-results that fake positive hopes). Very happy to see your comment and I def agree, if looking for specifically not-x and found x it also increases my trust in an article A LOT.
- nothrowaways 4y agoIt looks like body hacking. First gain wait, pause for a while, then fast to squeeze out carb, the remaining mineral sediments in bone.
- twawaaay 4y agoI fast regularly. It is pretty well known that our bodies are extremely good at preserving itself during fasting. I would even risk saying that our bodies don't work optimally until we are 2-3 days into a water fast. I feel better and lighter when I am fasting. Having to eat after a week of fasting almost feels like nuisance. Don't get me wrong, it still tastes incredible, but you know that this feeling of lightness is going to be lost with it. One thing bodies are very good at is preserving stuff when there is little of it, while fasting. Did you know you will be wasting much less muscle if you go on a complete fast than if you do calorie restricted diet? (please don't do calorie restriction) So this result is interesting but not really surprising to me. I would assume that if our bodies work overtime preserving stuff there is a possibility they will do the same to calcium. After all we are already built to send excess calcium into our bones.
- leereeves 4y ago> Don't get me wrong, it still tastes incredible... I must be doing something wrong. Every time I've tried fasting for more than a day, breaking the fast was painful. My throat always hurt too much to enjoy the meal.
- hirundo 4y agoI keep hearing stories like this so I'm sure it's a common experience. But the one time I fasted for a week, the last 36 hours were a torture of continuous hunger, and my body has been highly resistant to more fasting since. I used to do regular multiday fasts but haven't done any since. If you try it, it's probably best to follow the advice to stop when it gets bad and don't tough it out.
- jijji 4y agothe longest that I fasted was about 3 months and the biggest challenge that I faced was that if you omit protein from fasting then you have this weak/tiredness feeling throughout the time that you're fasting. what I found is that if you drink One of those 30g protein shakes everyday and a vitamin B complex vitamin (which supposedly breaks down lipids/fats) during the fasting, those feelings went away. on average I lost about 1 lb per day of body weight by doing such a fasting,.. and then after about 2 weeks of fasting it appears that your stomach gets smaller, and you become less hungry as a result, and the desire for food itself decreases.... during that 3 months I lost about 50 lb, and I think only because I would cheat once per week on Sunday.
- 11235813213455 4y agoLong fasting is something trendy, but I don't believe in its long term benefits, because the goal is to lose weight and reach our own ideal weight (usually between 18 and 24 BMI depending on your body shape). Many ways to achieve this: vegetable super rich diet, eat less often, bike for commuting or for everything, minimalism (depend less on things & services)