3 ms·

When I first saw the new design, I thought something in the lines of "oh, again, changing what wasn't broken for no good reason". Then I started to get used to

by reisse 4y ago

When I first saw the new design, I thought something in the lines of "oh, again, changing what wasn't broken for no good reason". Then I started to get used to it... and realized it _is_ better than the old one. First of all, English is not my native language. Common pattern when reading Wikipedia for me is to check native version, then switch to English if there was not enough info. In the previous design I had to re-Google English version of the page. Now it's one click in the toolbar. Then, the content narrowing. It wasn't until I got some pages in the old design that I felt reading full-width text (on a 16:9 display) uncomfortable. Table of contents on the left also helps and makes experience more uniform across different sites and software (Google Docs, PDF viewers, and so on). Overall, the changes just "clicked" right. Don't even have anything to rant about, the design gets out of the way after the first five minutes of reading. Thanks to Alex and team!

benatkin 4y ago
> In the previous design I had to re-Google English version of the page. Now it's one click in the toolbar. That's because it was a different page about the same thing. Pages in other languages aren't and shouldn't be translations. Now the Spanish page for Cheems is probably at risk of being merged into the Doge page because that's what happened on the English Wikipedia because Cheems isn't as popular with English speakers.
- reisse 4y ago
  > That's because it was a different page about the same thing. I don't see how being "different page about the same thing" justifies lack of the language switch. > Pages in other languages aren't and shouldn't be translations. That's a straw man. I didn't say they are or they should be.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    there's no language switch, they're different pages unless they're determined to be about the same thing. shoehorning them into a 1:1 mapping is toxic. > That's a straw man. I didn't say they are or they should be. I didn't say or imply you said that, just that it could be a result of the new policy. > This has always been the case, and the rollout of a new skin certainly hasn't changed that. Often concerns are about things that haven't happened before, and yet they still come true. For instance the pandemic was full of firsts.
- duskwuff 4y ago
  > Now the Spanish page for Cheems is probably at risk of being merged into the Doge page because that's what happened on the English Wikipedia because Cheems isn't as popular with English speakers. Why would you think that? Each language's Wikipedia is a separate project with its own administration and its own criteria for notability. This has always been the case, and the rollout of a new skin certainly hasn't changed that.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    ...because a contingent of people think there should be an easier way than a search engine to switch which language you're viewing a page in, even when it hasn't been marked as being the same. This prefers (but doesn't necessarily mandate) a 1:1 mapping. I think a search engine is appropriate.
    - duskwuff 4y ago
      Interlanguage links on Wikipedia have existed since 2002. They are not a new feature. Literally the only thing which has changed about them with this skin rollout is that they are now shown in a dropdown at the top of the page, rather than on the sidebar or at the bottom of the page.
      - benatkin 4y ago
        And the expectation that there should be links for pretty much every topic for which there is content on both sites...
        duskwuff 4y ago
        That expectation has always existed, and interlangage links have been maintained centrally in Wikidata since 2012.
    - jdlshore 4y ago
      Your reaction here is a bit overblown. Do you often have concerns about imagined futures? If so, you might want to look into a condition called "anticipatory anxiety."
shiomiru 4y ago
> In the previous design I had to re-Google English version of the page. Now it's one click in the toolbar. No, this feature had always been one click in the toolbar. Now it needs at least two clicks, and usually also a bunch of scrolling. Definitely a regression in my eyes.
alisonatwork 4y ago
I have exactly the opposite experience with the new language button. In the old design, all of the main languages for the page were easily available in a list on the left, so there was much less clicking and scrolling required. You could also see at a glance which topics were most well-documented in which language. Now you have to scroll all the way back to the top of the page to change it, and you have to waste a click just to see which languages are available in the first place. Putting the table of contents shortcuts on the left instead of the top, on the other hand, seems pointless to me, since if I wanted to jump to a particular section, I would already know that at the top of the page, and I wouldn't need to do it after I was already halfway down. Putting languages halfway down makes more sense to me, since it's exactly halfway down where if I find some controversial text or a disappointingly slim section, that's exactly when I want to see which other languages are available and if those versions contained more details or a different point of view. I read a lot of Wikipedia, so literally every day since the redesign I've found myself annoyed at all the extra scrolling and clicking I have been required to do while this new floating sidebar sits there providing negative value. Negative because it's both wider than the old one, and because it constantly distracts my reading as I scroll by changing the color. I do like the idea of providing a floating sidebar, and I am not opposed to putting the table of contents in there for people who want it, but removing the language navigation functionality was really a big miss for me.
dotnet00 4y ago
On the other hand I switched over to Wikiwand in response to the change and have been enjoying not having most of my screen wasted.
msla 4y ago
Proof nobody reads the linked article: The article is completely blank. So it goes.

by reisse 4y ago

benatkin 4y ago

> In the previous design I had to re-Google English version of the page. Now it's one click in the toolbar. That's because it was a different page about the same thing. Pages in other languages aren't and shouldn't be translations. Now the Spanish page for Cheems is probably at risk of being merged into the Doge page because that's what happened on the English Wikipedia because Cheems isn't as popular with English speakers.

reisse 4y ago
> That's because it was a different page about the same thing. I don't see how being "different page about the same thing" justifies lack of the language switch. > Pages in other languages aren't and shouldn't be translations. That's a straw man. I didn't say they are or they should be.
- benatkin 4y ago
  there's no language switch, they're different pages unless they're determined to be about the same thing. shoehorning them into a 1:1 mapping is toxic. > That's a straw man. I didn't say they are or they should be. I didn't say or imply you said that, just that it could be a result of the new policy. > This has always been the case, and the rollout of a new skin certainly hasn't changed that. Often concerns are about things that haven't happened before, and yet they still come true. For instance the pandemic was full of firsts.
duskwuff 4y ago
> Now the Spanish page for Cheems is probably at risk of being merged into the Doge page because that's what happened on the English Wikipedia because Cheems isn't as popular with English speakers. Why would you think that? Each language's Wikipedia is a separate project with its own administration and its own criteria for notability. This has always been the case, and the rollout of a new skin certainly hasn't changed that.
- benatkin 4y ago
  ...because a contingent of people think there should be an easier way than a search engine to switch which language you're viewing a page in, even when it hasn't been marked as being the same. This prefers (but doesn't necessarily mandate) a 1:1 mapping. I think a search engine is appropriate.
  - duskwuff 4y ago
    Interlanguage links on Wikipedia have existed since 2002. They are not a new feature. Literally the only thing which has changed about them with this skin rollout is that they are now shown in a dropdown at the top of the page, rather than on the sidebar or at the bottom of the page.
    - benatkin 4y ago
      And the expectation that there should be links for pretty much every topic for which there is content on both sites...
      - duskwuff 4y ago
        That expectation has always existed, and interlangage links have been maintained centrally in Wikidata since 2012.
  - jdlshore 4y ago
    Your reaction here is a bit overblown. Do you often have concerns about imagined futures? If so, you might want to look into a condition called "anticipatory anxiety."

shiomiru 4y ago

> In the previous design I had to re-Google English version of the page. Now it's one click in the toolbar. No, this feature had always been one click in the toolbar. Now it needs at least two clicks, and usually also a bunch of scrolling. Definitely a regression in my eyes.

alisonatwork 4y ago

I have exactly the opposite experience with the new language button. In the old design, all of the main languages for the page were easily available in a list on the left, so there was much less clicking and scrolling required. You could also see at a glance which topics were most well-documented in which language. Now you have to scroll all the way back to the top of the page to change it, and you have to waste a click just to see which languages are available in the first place. Putting the table of contents shortcuts on the left instead of the top, on the other hand, seems pointless to me, since if I wanted to jump to a particular section, I would already know that at the top of the page, and I wouldn't need to do it after I was already halfway down. Putting languages halfway down makes more sense to me, since it's exactly halfway down where if I find some controversial text or a disappointingly slim section, that's exactly when I want to see which other languages are available and if those versions contained more details or a different point of view. I read a lot of Wikipedia, so literally every day since the redesign I've found myself annoyed at all the extra scrolling and clicking I have been required to do while this new floating sidebar sits there providing negative value. Negative because it's both wider than the old one, and because it constantly distracts my reading as I scroll by changing the color. I do like the idea of providing a floating sidebar, and I am not opposed to putting the table of contents in there for people who want it, but removing the language navigation functionality was really a big miss for me.

dotnet00 4y ago

On the other hand I switched over to Wikiwand in response to the change and have been enjoying not having most of my screen wasted.

msla 4y ago

Proof nobody reads the linked article: The article is completely blank. So it goes.