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> Locked up, fined, those who supported them have been fined or had their business shutdown. Bank accounts frozen. Crypto wallets blocked. You may want to expa

> Locked up, fined, those who supported them have been fined or had their business shutdown. Bank accounts frozen. Crypto wallets blocked. You may want to expand the timeline: They were asked to disperse, they did not. They became an illegal occupation, and still didn't leave when told. Only after they occupied Ottawa for days/weeks, disrupting the lives of residents, was the Emergencies Act invoked and all the above actions taken. No one forced them to commit illegal acts. > Campaigns to discredit their grievances such that the population doesn't understand what they were protesting and why. They were protesting public health measure that were needed to protect the public (quarantines, vaccines). Probably worth noting that the folks in the convoy didn't have broad support in their industry: * https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/embarrassment-for-the-industry-not-all-truckers-support-the-freedom-convoy-1.5757952 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/embarrassment-for-the-industry... * https://cantruck.ca/canadian-trucking-alliance-statement-to-those-engaged-in-road-border-protests/ https://cantruck.ca/canadian-trucking-alliance-statement-to-... * https://cantruck.ca/statement-by-canadian-trucking-alliance-president-on-ottawa-protests/ https://cantruck.ca/statement-by-canadian-trucking-alliance-... * https://globalnews.ca/news/8635963/south-asian-canadian-truckers-convoy-blockades-industry/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8635963/south-asian-canadian-truc...

29083011397778 4y ago
Per grandparent, "...there's a reason I was so against what was done to the Canadian truckers even though I generally disagreed with them." We don't need to agree with the message to recognize that the means used to shut them down were, at best, not fantastic. There's blame to be had all 'round, and nobody comes off terribly sympathetic. That said, by your logic, any protest can be shut down as soon as it starts to work by declaring it illegal. That's part of why trains keep derailing in the states too - those that care about safety and working conditions, and have the power to change both by striking, cannot legally strike. That's why nurses unions keep getting the short end of the stick: they cannot bargain effectively, because they're chained to the bargaining table due to an inability to legally strike as long as they need to. Simply declaring protests as illegal can leave us feeling like we took the high road with the Canadian trucker protest, but doesn't lead to a world I especially want to live in.
- throw0101b 4y ago
  > That said, by your logic, any protest can be shut down as soon as it starts to work by declaring it illegal. Yes. The question is: what kind of society do you live in and where do the authorities of said society draw the line on allowing protests/demonstrations? In some societies any opposition to government actions/decision at all is illegal. And when it is declared illegal or you are perhaps asked to stop/disperse, what will your reaction be? How serious is the issue that you are demonstrating about? Are you willing to go to prison for it (e.g., Gandhi was)? Remember also, it's not just the authorities that you are protesting that you are messaging to, but also to your fellow citizens. Occupying a city and generating noise 24/7 so people can't sleep is not a way to get people onto your side. I coïncidentally just finished reading a book on the subject: > Civil resistance is a method of conflict through which unarmed civilians use a variety of coordinated methods (strikes, protests, demonstrations, boycotts, and many other tactics) to prosecute a conflict without directly harming or threatening to harm an opponent. Sometimes called nonviolent resistance, unarmed struggle, or nonviolent action, this form of political action is now a mainstay across the globe. It was a central form of resistance in postwar anti-colonial movements, the 1989 revolutions, and the Arab Awakenings, and people are practicing civil resistance at higher rates than ever before around the world, including in the United States. If we want to understand the manifold protest movements emerging around the globe, we need a thorough understanding of civil resistance and its many dynamics and manifestations. * https://www.ericachenoweth.com/research/civil-resistance-what-everyone-needs-to-know https://www.ericachenoweth.com/research/civil-resistance-wha... * https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-9780190244408 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-978... * https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44096650 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44096650 If you wish your movement to succeed you have to broaden your support to the wider population, so you have to be mindful of how your actions are perceived. So these truckers (and the organizers) maybe should have asked themselves 'how will an illegal occupation would go down with the general public?' How was this action helping their cause? > Simply declaring protests as illegal can leave us feeling like we took the high road with the Canadian trucker protest, but doesn't lead to a world I especially want to live in. Once again: it was not the protests that were declared illegal but the occupation. Nowhere in the Charter does it say you can camp out in a city and generate noise throughout the night: * https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-than-annoying-what-trucker-convoys-nearly-nonstop-honking-could-be-doing-to-people-in-ottawa https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-than-annoying-what... * https://globalnews.ca/news/8586606/ottawa-trucker-protest-harassment-noise/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8586606/ottawa-trucker-protest-ha... Or if there is, I would love a citation to it, or a court ruling saying occupations are legally okay.
lamontcg 4y ago
> You may want to expand the timeline: They were asked to disperse, they did not. They became an illegal occupation, and still didn't leave when told. Only after they occupied Ottawa for days/weeks, disrupting the lives of residents, was the Emergencies Act invoked and all the above actions taken. I mean that's the kind of thing that left wing protestors do all the time. You have things like the 40 hour workweek due to protestors doing illegal things like that, and often getting flat-out murdered back in the day. > They were protesting public health measure that were needed to protect the public (quarantines, vaccines). > Probably worth noting that the folks in the convoy didn't have broad support in their industry You have to be very careful with these kinds of arguments because you'll find that tactics which get used against people you don't like may get immediately flipped around and used against people you do like, or even yourself. That's the whole problem with all the PATRIOT Act nonsense in the US. Once you give authorities the license to use tactics against one group that everyone clearly agrees deserves it, they never stop there. Some problem with the death penalty and whoever your favorite serial killer is who clearly deserves death. Once the state can put people to death they start looking for more and more people to kill.
- throw0101b 4y ago
  > You have things like the 40 hour workweek due to protestors doing illegal things like that, and often getting flat-out murdered back in the day. Yes, and they kept at it until they won because they believed in their cause and were able to gain more and more public support. >> Probably worth noting that the folks in the convoy didn't have broad support in their industry > You have to be very careful with these kinds of arguments because you'll find that tactics which get used against people you don't like may get immediately flipped around and used against people you do like, or even yourself. It is the job of a movement to convince others that their goals are noble and that others should support them. If the Convoy Truckers failed to convince that others in their industry (and the broader public) to support them, (a) they're bad at communicating, or (b) folks concluded they're a bunch of anti-vaxxer cranks and didn't want anything to do with them, (c) …?.
  - junofan 4y ago

29083011397778 4y ago

Per grandparent, "...there's a reason I was so against what was done to the Canadian truckers even though I generally disagreed with them." We don't need to agree with the message to recognize that the means used to shut them down were, at best, not fantastic. There's blame to be had all 'round, and nobody comes off terribly sympathetic. That said, by your logic, any protest can be shut down as soon as it starts to work by declaring it illegal. That's part of why trains keep derailing in the states too - those that care about safety and working conditions, and have the power to change both by striking, cannot legally strike. That's why nurses unions keep getting the short end of the stick: they cannot bargain effectively, because they're chained to the bargaining table due to an inability to legally strike as long as they need to. Simply declaring protests as illegal can leave us feeling like we took the high road with the Canadian trucker protest, but doesn't lead to a world I especially want to live in.

throw0101b 4y ago
> That said, by your logic, any protest can be shut down as soon as it starts to work by declaring it illegal. Yes. The question is: what kind of society do you live in and where do the authorities of said society draw the line on allowing protests/demonstrations? In some societies any opposition to government actions/decision at all is illegal. And when it is declared illegal or you are perhaps asked to stop/disperse, what will your reaction be? How serious is the issue that you are demonstrating about? Are you willing to go to prison for it (e.g., Gandhi was)? Remember also, it's not just the authorities that you are protesting that you are messaging to, but also to your fellow citizens. Occupying a city and generating noise 24/7 so people can't sleep is not a way to get people onto your side. I coïncidentally just finished reading a book on the subject: > Civil resistance is a method of conflict through which unarmed civilians use a variety of coordinated methods (strikes, protests, demonstrations, boycotts, and many other tactics) to prosecute a conflict without directly harming or threatening to harm an opponent. Sometimes called nonviolent resistance, unarmed struggle, or nonviolent action, this form of political action is now a mainstay across the globe. It was a central form of resistance in postwar anti-colonial movements, the 1989 revolutions, and the Arab Awakenings, and people are practicing civil resistance at higher rates than ever before around the world, including in the United States. If we want to understand the manifold protest movements emerging around the globe, we need a thorough understanding of civil resistance and its many dynamics and manifestations. * https://www.ericachenoweth.com/research/civil-resistance-what-everyone-needs-to-know https://www.ericachenoweth.com/research/civil-resistance-wha... * https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-9780190244408 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-978... * https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44096650 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44096650 If you wish your movement to succeed you have to broaden your support to the wider population, so you have to be mindful of how your actions are perceived. So these truckers (and the organizers) maybe should have asked themselves 'how will an illegal occupation would go down with the general public?' How was this action helping their cause? > Simply declaring protests as illegal can leave us feeling like we took the high road with the Canadian trucker protest, but doesn't lead to a world I especially want to live in. Once again: it was not the protests that were declared illegal but the occupation. Nowhere in the Charter does it say you can camp out in a city and generate noise throughout the night: * https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-than-annoying-what-trucker-convoys-nearly-nonstop-honking-could-be-doing-to-people-in-ottawa https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/more-than-annoying-what... * https://globalnews.ca/news/8586606/ottawa-trucker-protest-harassment-noise/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8586606/ottawa-trucker-protest-ha... Or if there is, I would love a citation to it, or a court ruling saying occupations are legally okay.

lamontcg 4y ago

> You may want to expand the timeline: They were asked to disperse, they did not. They became an illegal occupation, and still didn't leave when told. Only after they occupied Ottawa for days/weeks, disrupting the lives of residents, was the Emergencies Act invoked and all the above actions taken. I mean that's the kind of thing that left wing protestors do all the time. You have things like the 40 hour workweek due to protestors doing illegal things like that, and often getting flat-out murdered back in the day. > They were protesting public health measure that were needed to protect the public (quarantines, vaccines). > Probably worth noting that the folks in the convoy didn't have broad support in their industry You have to be very careful with these kinds of arguments because you'll find that tactics which get used against people you don't like may get immediately flipped around and used against people you do like, or even yourself. That's the whole problem with all the PATRIOT Act nonsense in the US. Once you give authorities the license to use tactics against one group that everyone clearly agrees deserves it, they never stop there. Some problem with the death penalty and whoever your favorite serial killer is who clearly deserves death. Once the state can put people to death they start looking for more and more people to kill.

throw0101b 4y ago
> You have things like the 40 hour workweek due to protestors doing illegal things like that, and often getting flat-out murdered back in the day. Yes, and they kept at it until they won because they believed in their cause and were able to gain more and more public support. >> Probably worth noting that the folks in the convoy didn't have broad support in their industry > You have to be very careful with these kinds of arguments because you'll find that tactics which get used against people you don't like may get immediately flipped around and used against people you do like, or even yourself. It is the job of a movement to convince others that their goals are noble and that others should support them. If the Convoy Truckers failed to convince that others in their industry (and the broader public) to support them, (a) they're bad at communicating, or (b) folks concluded they're a bunch of anti-vaxxer cranks and didn't want anything to do with them, (c) …?.
- junofan 4y ago