4 ms·

Even taking calves from their mothers is cruel - on dairy farms I mean, on beef farms they're being kept with their mothers. Some cows will loudly grieve for we

by myshpa 4y ago

Even taking calves from their mothers is cruel - on dairy farms I mean, on beef farms they're being kept with their mothers. Some cows will loudly grieve for weeks, some will try to hide their calves from the farmer. And then there's the question of killing. If you haven't seen how it goes, may I suggest movie Dominion? It's not usually as painless/stress-free as we'd like to believe. https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34541077 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34541077 "You could say that if you kill a cow you're depriving it of the rest of its existence, which could also have been a happy, good existence, so why deprive it of that just because you want to eat some meat when you've got other healthy, nutritious, delicious things that you could also eat? Peter Singer, professor of bioethics at Princeton University "You don't have to think about humans in exactly the same way that you think about cows. But you've got to explain why you think it's permissible to do to an animal what you think it would be impermissible to do to a human being. In the case of people their suffering matters, but their happiness also matters. The same should be true in the case of animals. Jeff MacMahan, White's Professor of Moral Philosophy at the University of Oxford > One that presupposes that eating meat requires cruelty We don't have to presuppose anything ... it's not possible otherwise.

uberman 4y ago
We take puppies and kittens from their mothers. Is that cruel? We spade and neuter them as well, is that cruel? Is the entire domestication of animals cruel? Is it kind to forgo neutering pets in the name of allowing them to breed unfettered? Is it cruel to cull part of a herd of dear when the alternative is a slow wasting death or winter starvation? Is it kind to release hundreds of mink into the wild to die a lingering death from starvation? Where do you imagine beef bulls living out their lives in a happy and good existence?
- myshpa 4y ago
  > We take puppies and kittens from their mothers. Is that cruel? We have laws that prevent us from taking too young puppies and kittens from their mothers, in Europe at least. > We spade and neuter them as well, is that cruel? We use anesthetics for that ... animal agriculture doesn't. E.g. chick beak trimming, chick culling, piglet tail trimming, piglet tooth clipping, skinning alive ... I could go on for a long time (see the Dominion movie if you don't believe me). You cannot really compare lives of our pets with lives of our farm animals. > Is it kind to forgo neutering pets in the name of allowing them to breed unfettered? No, because we tend to have carnivores for pets ... and that's incredibly stupid. They already consume 25% of our meat production (IIRC). Having more of them is cruel ... to the wildlife which habitats that destroys. > cruel to cull part of a herd of dear when the alternative is a slow wasting death or winter starvation That's a problem with our forestry practices ... we eliminate predators, destroy natural habitats and then pretend our actions are necessary (and enjoy a wild game in process). > Is it kind to release hundreds of mink into the wild to die a lingering death from starvation? No ... better to not breed them at all. Why breed new ones to perpetuity in small cages, and kill new generations again and again? > Where do you imagine beef bulls living out their lives in a happy and good existence? Eat plantbased, grow cauliflower, beans and rice. Problem solved.
fargle 4y ago
And while that's a nice survey of one side of the argument, it doesn't mean anything. People that agree with you that meat => cruelty will, as it happens, agree with you. But I don't. Lots of other people don't. In fact, a majority of people don't. I despise cruelty to animals and the people who inflict it. I just don't think that for example, separating calves, is necessarily cruel. I don't think that eating their meat and wearing their skins is necessarily cruel either. It's not for lack of education or empathy. I raise animals, I love animals, and yet I still eat some. I have no issue with that. uberman has a good point that not everyone agrees or thinks that position is obviously true. And it's a far more intelligent argument than just restating your obvious position as fact.
- myshpa 4y ago
  > I despise cruelty to animals and the people who inflict it. I just don't think that for example, separating calves, is necessarily cruel > I raise animals, I love animals, and yet I still eat some. I have no issue with that https://www.farmforward.com/issues/animal-welfare/animal-welfare-issues/ https://www.farmforward.com/issues/animal-welfare/animal-wel... Gary Comstock, professor of philosophy at North Carolina State University. "People used to justify eating meat for biological reasons: we are omnivores, our incisors are designed to eat meat, this is a natural thing for us to do. The problem is there are many natural things that are not right for us to do, and the biological features are irrelevant to the question of how we ought to live our lives. "Evidence seems to be building that the shoe's on the other foot now; that those who want to kill animals and eat them ought to justify their view. It shouldn't be the other way round." --- Tell your descendants that you truly love animals, when they'll ask you why are wild mammals, all elephants, giraffes and tigers extinct, and why is the earth in such a bad shape. They'll surely understand why you couldn't give up meat & dairy. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-up-call-total-weight-of-wild-mammals-less-than-10-of-humanitys https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-u... - ‘A wake-up call’: total weight of wild mammals less than 10% of humanity’s https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... - Agriculture production is a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries

by myshpa 4y ago

uberman 4y ago

We take puppies and kittens from their mothers. Is that cruel? We spade and neuter them as well, is that cruel? Is the entire domestication of animals cruel? Is it kind to forgo neutering pets in the name of allowing them to breed unfettered? Is it cruel to cull part of a herd of dear when the alternative is a slow wasting death or winter starvation? Is it kind to release hundreds of mink into the wild to die a lingering death from starvation? Where do you imagine beef bulls living out their lives in a happy and good existence?

myshpa 4y ago
> We take puppies and kittens from their mothers. Is that cruel? We have laws that prevent us from taking too young puppies and kittens from their mothers, in Europe at least. > We spade and neuter them as well, is that cruel? We use anesthetics for that ... animal agriculture doesn't. E.g. chick beak trimming, chick culling, piglet tail trimming, piglet tooth clipping, skinning alive ... I could go on for a long time (see the Dominion movie if you don't believe me). You cannot really compare lives of our pets with lives of our farm animals. > Is it kind to forgo neutering pets in the name of allowing them to breed unfettered? No, because we tend to have carnivores for pets ... and that's incredibly stupid. They already consume 25% of our meat production (IIRC). Having more of them is cruel ... to the wildlife which habitats that destroys. > cruel to cull part of a herd of dear when the alternative is a slow wasting death or winter starvation That's a problem with our forestry practices ... we eliminate predators, destroy natural habitats and then pretend our actions are necessary (and enjoy a wild game in process). > Is it kind to release hundreds of mink into the wild to die a lingering death from starvation? No ... better to not breed them at all. Why breed new ones to perpetuity in small cages, and kill new generations again and again? > Where do you imagine beef bulls living out their lives in a happy and good existence? Eat plantbased, grow cauliflower, beans and rice. Problem solved.

fargle 4y ago

And while that's a nice survey of one side of the argument, it doesn't mean anything. People that agree with you that meat => cruelty will, as it happens, agree with you. But I don't. Lots of other people don't. In fact, a majority of people don't. I despise cruelty to animals and the people who inflict it. I just don't think that for example, separating calves, is necessarily cruel. I don't think that eating their meat and wearing their skins is necessarily cruel either. It's not for lack of education or empathy. I raise animals, I love animals, and yet I still eat some. I have no issue with that. uberman has a good point that not everyone agrees or thinks that position is obviously true. And it's a far more intelligent argument than just restating your obvious position as fact.

myshpa 4y ago
> I despise cruelty to animals and the people who inflict it. I just don't think that for example, separating calves, is necessarily cruel > I raise animals, I love animals, and yet I still eat some. I have no issue with that https://www.farmforward.com/issues/animal-welfare/animal-welfare-issues/ https://www.farmforward.com/issues/animal-welfare/animal-wel... Gary Comstock, professor of philosophy at North Carolina State University. "People used to justify eating meat for biological reasons: we are omnivores, our incisors are designed to eat meat, this is a natural thing for us to do. The problem is there are many natural things that are not right for us to do, and the biological features are irrelevant to the question of how we ought to live our lives. "Evidence seems to be building that the shoe's on the other foot now; that those who want to kill animals and eat them ought to justify their view. It shouldn't be the other way round." --- Tell your descendants that you truly love animals, when they'll ask you why are wild mammals, all elephants, giraffes and tigers extinct, and why is the earth in such a bad shape. They'll surely understand why you couldn't give up meat & dairy. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-up-call-total-weight-of-wild-mammals-less-than-10-of-humanitys https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-u... - ‘A wake-up call’: total weight of wild mammals less than 10% of humanity’s https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agriculture_production_as_a_major_driver_of_the_Earth_system_exceeding_planetary_boundaries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320356605_Agricultu... - Agriculture production is a major driver of the Earth system exceeding planetary boundaries