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For what it's worth, one Roman figure who had an insanely engorged ego, relied on huge loans for his business dealings, and assigned Rome's decay to a shadowy c

by thom 4y ago

For what it's worth, one Roman figure who had an insanely engorged ego, relied on huge loans for his business dealings, and assigned Rome's decay to a shadowy cabal of deep-state paedophiles, was Cicero.

prewett 4y ago
Ha! Now that would be a lovely parallel to his complaint about children disobeying parents. I think it would be refreshing to know that conspiracy theories are a expression within humanity, not a unique expression of modern (moral) failure. Do you have any sources / summaries for his Roman conspiracy theories? And how does this square with my perception that Cicero has been perceived as respectable? Is it just that he's respectable but also very traditional and has less than verified causal ideas? Or maybe he's not as respectable (at least in modern terms) as I had assumed?
- thom 4y ago
  If you want the most passionate and entertaining takedown (not just of the man but the tradition that has accepted his output uncritically), it would be Michael Parenti’s in The Assassination of Julius Caesar. But you can read about Cicero’s two Catiline conspiracies, the first completely fabricated, the second embellished beyond all reason, see his second oration against Catiline, chapter 4, sections 7-8 for the juiciest accusations re: corrupting the nation’s youth. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0019%3Atext%3DCatil.%3Aspeech%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D7 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... Early in his career he credited himself with bravely speaking out against allies of Sulla, but that was probably an embellishment: https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/11875418/THE_PUBLICATION_OF_CICERO_S_PRO_ROSCIO_AMERINO.pdf https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/11875418/THE_PUBLICATION_... He’s a very entertaining figure, and you can’t help but read his letters and identify a little with him (even as he swings from proclaiming himself the greatest human ever to live, to being wildly neurotic). He was a Demosthenes forever in search of a Philip but was ultimately too spineless and indecisive to affect events when it counted. In some ways I find him pitiable in the same way as Pompey - desperate to be accepted by the aristocracy and always insecure about it. But while his literary output was sparkling, his politics and egotism were contemptible.

by thom 4y ago

prewett 4y ago

Ha! Now that would be a lovely parallel to his complaint about children disobeying parents. I think it would be refreshing to know that conspiracy theories are a expression within humanity, not a unique expression of modern (moral) failure. Do you have any sources / summaries for his Roman conspiracy theories? And how does this square with my perception that Cicero has been perceived as respectable? Is it just that he's respectable but also very traditional and has less than verified causal ideas? Or maybe he's not as respectable (at least in modern terms) as I had assumed?

thom 4y ago
If you want the most passionate and entertaining takedown (not just of the man but the tradition that has accepted his output uncritically), it would be Michael Parenti’s in The Assassination of Julius Caesar. But you can read about Cicero’s two Catiline conspiracies, the first completely fabricated, the second embellished beyond all reason, see his second oration against Catiline, chapter 4, sections 7-8 for the juiciest accusations re: corrupting the nation’s youth. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0019%3Atext%3DCatil.%3Aspeech%3D2%3Achapter%3D4%3Asection%3D7 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... Early in his career he credited himself with bravely speaking out against allies of Sulla, but that was probably an embellishment: https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/11875418/THE_PUBLICATION_OF_CICERO_S_PRO_ROSCIO_AMERINO.pdf https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/11875418/THE_PUBLICATION_... He’s a very entertaining figure, and you can’t help but read his letters and identify a little with him (even as he swings from proclaiming himself the greatest human ever to live, to being wildly neurotic). He was a Demosthenes forever in search of a Philip but was ultimately too spineless and indecisive to affect events when it counted. In some ways I find him pitiable in the same way as Pompey - desperate to be accepted by the aristocracy and always insecure about it. But while his literary output was sparkling, his politics and egotism were contemptible.