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> But I broadly agree with your point - the tensions that brought the Republic down had been festering for hundreds of years. That's true but not my specific p

> But I broadly agree with your point - the tensions that brought the Republic down had been festering for hundreds of years. That's true but not my specific point. My specific point is that the above comment is extolling a milk-toast "both sides" view of the breakdown of the Roman Republic that simply isn't supported by fact. The problems facing Rome were plainly due to changes in geo-poltical and economic circumstances. Many of these changes in circumstances were themselves created by action of the basic structures of Roman society and the successes they had achieved. All resistance to addressing those changes in any manner, big or small, can be laid at the feet of an out of touch group of traditional aristocrats who would not abide Rome in any form besides the mythological form they believe it had in the early Republic. These people essentially held a veto to any "legitimate" challenge and used violence in successive circumstances where they feared an "illegitimate" challenge.

thom 4y ago
Totally agree that there wasn't much for the plebs to compromise on and I hope I'm not both-sidesing here, just pointing out that the tradition of violence around any proposed land reforms goes back hundreds of years, indeed all the way to the very first proposed agrarian laws of 486BC. The patrician class was conservative and backward-looking by its very nature, and the Roman form of government was almost _explicitly_ created to reach stalemate rather than solve problems in one side's favour (tribunes had the veto too, except as you point out for a few years under Sulla). Obviously in practice that meant the oligarchy had the better part of the deal. But that wasn't necessarily a _new_ tension. So what changed that these old grievances ended up shattering the Republic?
rnk 4y ago
When you say "traditional aristocrats who would not abide Rome in any form besides the mythological form they believe it had in the early Republic" that sure sounds like the us senate to me. As I see it, the senate still has few q-anon completely irrational people who want to destroy everything. The senate doesn't see that we are actually imperiled by another presidency that wants to continue to destroy our institutions. They don't seem to the see the danger. Thus we get our supreme court making decisions justified by writing from before 1776.

thom 4y ago

Totally agree that there wasn't much for the plebs to compromise on and I hope I'm not both-sidesing here, just pointing out that the tradition of violence around any proposed land reforms goes back hundreds of years, indeed all the way to the very first proposed agrarian laws of 486BC. The patrician class was conservative and backward-looking by its very nature, and the Roman form of government was almost _explicitly_ created to reach stalemate rather than solve problems in one side's favour (tribunes had the veto too, except as you point out for a few years under Sulla). Obviously in practice that meant the oligarchy had the better part of the deal. But that wasn't necessarily a _new_ tension. So what changed that these old grievances ended up shattering the Republic?

rnk 4y ago

When you say "traditional aristocrats who would not abide Rome in any form besides the mythological form they believe it had in the early Republic" that sure sounds like the us senate to me. As I see it, the senate still has few q-anon completely irrational people who want to destroy everything. The senate doesn't see that we are actually imperiled by another presidency that wants to continue to destroy our institutions. They don't seem to the see the danger. Thus we get our supreme court making decisions justified by writing from before 1776.