4 ms·

The late Republic is one of the most fascinating periods of history you can study, not least because the sources are so rich (albeit largely written by a bunch

by thom 4y ago

The late Republic is one of the most fascinating periods of history you can study, not least because the sources are so rich (albeit largely written by a bunch of self-aggrandizing aristocrats or their lackeys). But Caesar was largely a symptom of its decline and everyone can choose the seeds of destruction according to their tastes. Was it the First Slave Revolt, the Gracchi, the Social War, Marius, Sulla, the triumvirate, the optimates? Was it the lack of a common enemy after the sacks of Carthage and Corinth? Was it the unresolved tensions left over from the Conflict of Orders? Probably all of them, and you're just left to marvel, as Polybius did, that the Romans had a system that held the competing tensions in some sort of balance for as long as it did. The angle I've most enjoyed lately is applying the framework from Robin Markwica's "Logic of Affect" to many of the figures in the build up to the civil war. Erich Gruen's "The Last Generation of the Roman Republic" is also very interesting, in that he portrays most Republican institutions (and even Caesar and Pompey's relationship) functioning quite well fairly late on. The entire standoff seemed so unnecessary and avoidable, but there's too much power and prestige at stake by the end for anybody to budge. Were I to point the finger at one man it would be Cato the Younger, but as I say, it's all personal taste at this point.

raducu 4y ago
But the main reason was slave work that enabled the obscene accumulation of wealth in the hands of so few. Exactly what is happening today with slave wage, acces to AI/automation, discretionary not applying laws(labor laws?) for some players, massive tax evasion schemes for the 1%, printing money discretionary for the 1%, monopolies on comerce, state monopoly on comerce via tight monetary controls(China), treating homes as "investments", control of the media.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  This time around it will be different though.
arpowers 4y ago
Cato the younger for forcing Caesar to cross the Rubicon?
- thom 4y ago
  Yes. By refusing to come to an entirely reasonable settlement which allowed Caesar to return from Gaul peacefully and without being prosecuted. By working tirelessly to put a wedge between Pompey and Caesar.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - duxup 4y ago
      > has a long tradition of not prosecuting former Presidents Has this ever been tested often? The President generally has a lot of legal immunity and latitude. I don’t think that’s “tradition” where people choose not to prosecute the president, it’s just the law. Exceed that and every president is potentially at risk…
      - Turing_Machine 4y ago
        > Has this ever been tested often? Nixon comes to mind immediately. He was formally pardoned just to make sure he wasn't prosecuted. Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson were impeached (though not removed from office), but were never prosecuted for the (alleged) crimes that led to impeachment. The Harding administration was notoriously corrupt, and he would almost certainly have been impeached had he not died in office. Reagan was accused of violating the law in the Iran-Contra affair, but was never prosecuted. There are undoubtedly other examples that aren't coming to mind immediately, but yeah, I'd say the principle has been fairly well tested. To turn it around, no former President has ever been prosecuted after leaving office, to my knowledge, and it wasn't because none of them committed crimes.
        4y ago
prottog 4y ago
> the competing tensions in some sort of balance This is such a crucial aspect to stability through the ages. Any system of government that depends on an unbroken succession of angels is bound to fail sooner rather than later, and much sooner than anyone thinks; so systems must be designed with the assumption that power-hungry, egocentric maniacs will be in charge, and pit them against each other in a contained manner. "Ambition must be made to counteract ambition."

by thom 4y ago

raducu 4y ago

But the main reason was slave work that enabled the obscene accumulation of wealth in the hands of so few. Exactly what is happening today with slave wage, acces to AI/automation, discretionary not applying laws(labor laws?) for some players, massive tax evasion schemes for the 1%, printing money discretionary for the 1%, monopolies on comerce, state monopoly on comerce via tight monetary controls(China), treating homes as "investments", control of the media.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
This time around it will be different though.

arpowers 4y ago

Cato the younger for forcing Caesar to cross the Rubicon?

thom 4y ago
Yes. By refusing to come to an entirely reasonable settlement which allowed Caesar to return from Gaul peacefully and without being prosecuted. By working tirelessly to put a wedge between Pompey and Caesar.
- Turing_Machine 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - duxup 4y ago
    > has a long tradition of not prosecuting former Presidents Has this ever been tested often? The President generally has a lot of legal immunity and latitude. I don’t think that’s “tradition” where people choose not to prosecute the president, it’s just the law. Exceed that and every president is potentially at risk…
    - Turing_Machine 4y ago
      > Has this ever been tested often? Nixon comes to mind immediately. He was formally pardoned just to make sure he wasn't prosecuted. Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson were impeached (though not removed from office), but were never prosecuted for the (alleged) crimes that led to impeachment. The Harding administration was notoriously corrupt, and he would almost certainly have been impeached had he not died in office. Reagan was accused of violating the law in the Iran-Contra affair, but was never prosecuted. There are undoubtedly other examples that aren't coming to mind immediately, but yeah, I'd say the principle has been fairly well tested. To turn it around, no former President has ever been prosecuted after leaving office, to my knowledge, and it wasn't because none of them committed crimes.
      - 4y ago

prottog 4y ago

> the competing tensions in some sort of balance This is such a crucial aspect to stability through the ages. Any system of government that depends on an unbroken succession of angels is bound to fail sooner rather than later, and much sooner than anyone thinks; so systems must be designed with the assumption that power-hungry, egocentric maniacs will be in charge, and pit them against each other in a contained manner. "Ambition must be made to counteract ambition."