5 ms·

Did you know that out-of-the-box, Edge will transmit the content of your text boxes on web pages to the Microsoft Editor service for the purpose of gram

Did you know that out-of-the-box, Edge will transmit the content of your text boxes on web pages to the Microsoft Editor service for the purpose of grammatical suggestions? I have no idea how this concept got past legal but hey, it’s on by default now. Holy shit. :( At what point are some of the major government legal departments actually going to step up and sort this shit out? It is so, so, so, so, so far past overdue. Yet nothing. :(

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Chrome does the same thing for textboxes if you use enhanced spell checking. >Enhanced spell check Uses the same spell checker that’s used in Google search. Text you type in the browser is sent to Google.
- imajoredinecon 4y ago
  The difference is that Google has come under enough historical privacy flak that they now aggressively privacy red-team new functionality like this and do things like make it opt-in.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    That seems new?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Is there an actual example of what these "enhanced" spell-checkers provide over basic ones that run locally? To me it seems like spell checking is a problem that Word from over a decade ago solved well enough (and ran fine on that era's hardware).
  - delecti 4y ago
    A normal local spellcheck requires you to be much closer to the word than an "enhanced" one. As an example, if I search Google for "nucrusift" ("microsoft", but typed with my right hand one space to the left, a fairly common category of typo IME), it suggests a search for "Microsoft". The built-in spellcheck in Chrome (which I'm using to type this comment) does not offer any suggestions to correct "nucrusift".
    - pseudalopex 4y ago
      iOS's local spell check suggested Microsoft.
      - delecti 4y ago
        I just tried for myself, and that was the keyboard's auto-complete, not the OS's spell-check, a subtle but IMO important difference. I think it's reasonable to expect the keyboard to catch that kind of typo, given it inherently has to do that kind of fuzzy logic to determine words anyway. When I entered that same string into iOS Safari in a text box replying to your comment, deliberately bypassing the keyboard's auto-complete, it had no suggestions.
        pseudalopex 4y ago
        Marking unrecognized words, suggesting spellings, and auto correct are 3 different features if you want to split hairs. The distinction is not relevant to the claim a layout aware suggestion could not be produced locally.
        delecti 4y ago
        I didn't say it could not be produced locally. I was just providing "an actual example of what these "enhanced" spell-checkers provide over basic ones that run locally." I'm merely speaking to what is, not what could be.
        pseudalopex 4y ago
        I didn't say you made the claim. It's funny how words we choose can imply things.
  - Someone1234 4y ago
    They use ngrams[0] and provide much more current dictionaries that won't flag non-dictionary words that are popular phases (think Urban Dictionary-like words/phases). The closest thing to something like Grammarly, Microsoft Editor, or Google's Enhanced spell check that you can run locally is Language Tool's local HTTP (java) server[1] combined with the Language Tool extension, and installing an ngram database[2]. But that won't give you the up-to-date phase information and you'll get red-squiggles under common phases that aren't dictionary words yet (e.g. Fluffernutter, Copypasta, Deplatform, et al). Is it worth using these services given the privacy implications? Only you can answer that. I personally wish we had better local offerings, but I just don't think anyone wants to fund it when there's almost no revenue to be made. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-gram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-gram [1] https://dev.languagetool.org/http-server.html https://dev.languagetool.org/http-server.html [2] https://dev.languagetool.org/finding-errors-using-n-gram-data.html https://dev.languagetool.org/finding-errors-using-n-gram-dat...
    - 5- 4y ago
      what about that newer dictionary cannot be provided by a download? your browser probably updates itself every week or so. there is absolutely nothing about these kinds of services that require running them on someone else's computer, save for conspiratorial reasons. see also: machine translation (apple offline translate, firefox translations et al work just fine on your machine).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- binarycrusader 4y ago
  https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whitepaper/#writing-assistance https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whi...
Ygg2 4y ago
> At what point are some of the major government legal departments actually going to step up Why would they? It's cheap intelligence on their opponents. Bypasses those pesky constitution laws. Win-win.
favaq 4y ago
It helps to read TOS/EULA/etc. If you agree to something then you shouldn't be complaining about it.
- alpaca128 4y ago
  No. In many places getting consent by deceptive/malicious means is illegal, and EULAs cannot override laws. That's why Google's cookie popups now have a "reject all" button after a $170 million fine.
- macintux 4y ago
  10 years ago it would take a month of workdays. I have to imagine it's much worse now. https://www.techdirt.com/2012/04/23/to-read-all-privacy-policies-you-encounter-youd-need-to-take-month-off-work-each-year/ https://www.techdirt.com/2012/04/23/to-read-all-privacy-poli...
  - favaq 4y ago
    Then don't use the software, you can't just sign a contract and then back off because you didn't have time to read it before you signed it.
    - justinclift 4y ago
      Interestingly, when I booted up a Win10 VM (with internet access) a few weeks ago some Edge window appeared, took over the screen, and wanted to force me to go through their preferences/setup wizard. By "force" I mean "giving no other options". No "skip", "do it later" (or similar), and no way to quit. Had to outright kill the task in the windows process manager, as there's zero chance I want anything to do with Edge. So "don't use the software" is workable for people who know how to kill tasks. But MS will be pulling that shit on average consumers too.
  - omoikane 4y ago
    There is a website that summarizes terms of services: https://tosdr.org/ https://tosdr.org/ The about page says it started in June 2012, shortly after that techdirt article.
throwbackhere 4y ago
Your comment reminded me of the new grammar checking feature on my phone. It better not be what I think it is. EDIT 1: I just checked and, fucking hell, it's grammarly! Samsung sneaked in an update that was silently leaking everything I wrote to fucking grammarly. This can be disabled by pressing the gear button and accessing the hidden writing assistant menu. Good hardware is not worth risking my private information. Samsung, this will be the last time I buy a phone from you. EDIT 2: Couldn't find anything about this on Samsung's website. Found more information on grammarly: https://support.grammarly.com/hc/en-us/articles/4407988620173-How-to-use-Grammarly-through-the-Samsung-Keyboard https://support.grammarly.com/hc/en-us/articles/440798862017...
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Thanks for the notice, so that I could turn it off. My kbd is Gboard though, so it should be unaffected, by that particular thing. I would recommend Gboard. I use it for better multilingual support.
  - PufPufPuf 4y ago
    If you don't want your text sent to a corporation, I don't think Gboard is the answer
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      I think it has settings for that
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  > Samsung sneaked in an update that was silently leaking everything I wrote to fucking grammarly. It's not leaking if it's intentional. Leaking makes it sound like it was mistake.
web3-is-a-scam 4y ago
Why would governments be opposed to free mass surveillance. Microsoft is one of the biggest cronies in Washington.
- justinclift 4y ago
  It also surveils politicians, higher end public servants, and other law-involved decision makers who you'd think would have a problem with it. Maybe there's a blackmail and bribery department looking at what those people have been writing? (/s) Lets see if that "backlash against big tech" thing actually goes anyone. One can hope. :)
phendrenad2 4y ago
Most people want free grammar-checking, what are you suggesting exactly?
deafpolygon 4y ago
Well, here is what Microsoft says on the privacy for this service: > By default, Microsoft Edge provides spelling and grammar checking using Microsoft Editor. When using Microsoft Editor, Microsoft Edge sends your typed text and a service token to a Microsoft cloud service over a secure HTTPS connection. The service token doesn't contain any user-identifiable information. A Microsoft cloud service then processes the text to detect spelling and grammar errors in your text. All your typed text that's sent to Microsoft is deleted immediately after processing occurs. No data is stored for any period of time. So, they don't keep any data using this. But it's unclear since they also do text prediction; which can be toggled separately in Edge. > If the Use text prediction toggle is turned on, Microsoft Edge sends the text in the text box, your top language from the browser setting, and a text box identifier to a Microsoft cloud service over a secure HTTPS connection. The text box identifier is not associated with your account. The Microsoft cloud service processes the text to generate a relevant text prediction. Typed characters and text predictions are cached for up to 30 days, for service quality and performance improvement purposes only. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whitepaper/#writing-assistance https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whi...
- justinclift 4y ago
  > A Microsoft cloud service then processes the text to detect spelling and grammar errors in your text. All your typed text that's sent to Microsoft is deleted immediately after processing occurs. No data is stored for any period of time. Interestingly, if they also share the text with third parties, then every one of those statements could still be completely true.
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    Do you think they are being deceptive?
    - justinclift 4y ago
      Who knows for sure as to the current state of things, and what they may do in future. But, it's the kind of hole in their wording they could drive a truck though. ;) Personally, I'd be very surprised if they're not using people's written text as training data for various "AI" efforts. Let alone sharing the data with other parties. Watching MS operate for a couple of decades has shown that if they see an opportunity to do something shitty, they'll probably take it. o_O
hulitu 4y ago
> At what point are some of the major government legal departments actually going to step up and sort this shit out? At the point when their love relationship with US will end up in divorce. So not in the near future.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Chrome does the same thing for textboxes if you use enhanced spell checking. >Enhanced spell check Uses the same spell checker that’s used in Google search. Text you type in the browser is sent to Google.

imajoredinecon 4y ago
The difference is that Google has come under enough historical privacy flak that they now aggressively privacy red-team new functionality like this and do things like make it opt-in.
- justinclift 4y ago
  That seems new?
Nextgrid 4y ago
Is there an actual example of what these "enhanced" spell-checkers provide over basic ones that run locally? To me it seems like spell checking is a problem that Word from over a decade ago solved well enough (and ran fine on that era's hardware).
- delecti 4y ago
  A normal local spellcheck requires you to be much closer to the word than an "enhanced" one. As an example, if I search Google for "nucrusift" ("microsoft", but typed with my right hand one space to the left, a fairly common category of typo IME), it suggests a search for "Microsoft". The built-in spellcheck in Chrome (which I'm using to type this comment) does not offer any suggestions to correct "nucrusift".
  - pseudalopex 4y ago
    iOS's local spell check suggested Microsoft.
    - delecti 4y ago
      I just tried for myself, and that was the keyboard's auto-complete, not the OS's spell-check, a subtle but IMO important difference. I think it's reasonable to expect the keyboard to catch that kind of typo, given it inherently has to do that kind of fuzzy logic to determine words anyway. When I entered that same string into iOS Safari in a text box replying to your comment, deliberately bypassing the keyboard's auto-complete, it had no suggestions.
      - pseudalopex 4y ago
        Marking unrecognized words, suggesting spellings, and auto correct are 3 different features if you want to split hairs. The distinction is not relevant to the claim a layout aware suggestion could not be produced locally.
        delecti 4y ago
        I didn't say it could not be produced locally. I was just providing "an actual example of what these "enhanced" spell-checkers provide over basic ones that run locally." I'm merely speaking to what is, not what could be.
        pseudalopex 4y ago
        I didn't say you made the claim. It's funny how words we choose can imply things.
- Someone1234 4y ago
  They use ngrams[0] and provide much more current dictionaries that won't flag non-dictionary words that are popular phases (think Urban Dictionary-like words/phases). The closest thing to something like Grammarly, Microsoft Editor, or Google's Enhanced spell check that you can run locally is Language Tool's local HTTP (java) server[1] combined with the Language Tool extension, and installing an ngram database[2]. But that won't give you the up-to-date phase information and you'll get red-squiggles under common phases that aren't dictionary words yet (e.g. Fluffernutter, Copypasta, Deplatform, et al). Is it worth using these services given the privacy implications? Only you can answer that. I personally wish we had better local offerings, but I just don't think anyone wants to fund it when there's almost no revenue to be made. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-gram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-gram [1] https://dev.languagetool.org/http-server.html https://dev.languagetool.org/http-server.html [2] https://dev.languagetool.org/finding-errors-using-n-gram-data.html https://dev.languagetool.org/finding-errors-using-n-gram-dat...
  - 5- 4y ago
    what about that newer dictionary cannot be provided by a download? your browser probably updates itself every week or so. there is absolutely nothing about these kinds of services that require running them on someone else's computer, save for conspiratorial reasons. see also: machine translation (apple offline translate, firefox translations et al work just fine on your machine).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
binarycrusader 4y ago
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whitepaper/#writing-assistance https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whi...

Ygg2 4y ago

> At what point are some of the major government legal departments actually going to step up Why would they? It's cheap intelligence on their opponents. Bypasses those pesky constitution laws. Win-win.

favaq 4y ago

It helps to read TOS/EULA/etc. If you agree to something then you shouldn't be complaining about it.

alpaca128 4y ago
No. In many places getting consent by deceptive/malicious means is illegal, and EULAs cannot override laws. That's why Google's cookie popups now have a "reject all" button after a $170 million fine.
macintux 4y ago
10 years ago it would take a month of workdays. I have to imagine it's much worse now. https://www.techdirt.com/2012/04/23/to-read-all-privacy-policies-you-encounter-youd-need-to-take-month-off-work-each-year/ https://www.techdirt.com/2012/04/23/to-read-all-privacy-poli...
- favaq 4y ago
  Then don't use the software, you can't just sign a contract and then back off because you didn't have time to read it before you signed it.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Interestingly, when I booted up a Win10 VM (with internet access) a few weeks ago some Edge window appeared, took over the screen, and wanted to force me to go through their preferences/setup wizard. By "force" I mean "giving no other options". No "skip", "do it later" (or similar), and no way to quit. Had to outright kill the task in the windows process manager, as there's zero chance I want anything to do with Edge. So "don't use the software" is workable for people who know how to kill tasks. But MS will be pulling that shit on average consumers too.
- omoikane 4y ago
  There is a website that summarizes terms of services: https://tosdr.org/ https://tosdr.org/ The about page says it started in June 2012, shortly after that techdirt article.

throwbackhere 4y ago

Your comment reminded me of the new grammar checking feature on my phone. It better not be what I think it is. EDIT 1: I just checked and, fucking hell, it's grammarly! Samsung sneaked in an update that was silently leaking everything I wrote to fucking grammarly. This can be disabled by pressing the gear button and accessing the hidden writing assistant menu. Good hardware is not worth risking my private information. Samsung, this will be the last time I buy a phone from you. EDIT 2: Couldn't find anything about this on Samsung's website. Found more information on grammarly: https://support.grammarly.com/hc/en-us/articles/4407988620173-How-to-use-Grammarly-through-the-Samsung-Keyboard https://support.grammarly.com/hc/en-us/articles/440798862017...

kzrdude 4y ago
Thanks for the notice, so that I could turn it off. My kbd is Gboard though, so it should be unaffected, by that particular thing. I would recommend Gboard. I use it for better multilingual support.
- PufPufPuf 4y ago
  If you don't want your text sent to a corporation, I don't think Gboard is the answer
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    I think it has settings for that
jasonlotito 4y ago
> Samsung sneaked in an update that was silently leaking everything I wrote to fucking grammarly. It's not leaking if it's intentional. Leaking makes it sound like it was mistake.

web3-is-a-scam 4y ago

Why would governments be opposed to free mass surveillance. Microsoft is one of the biggest cronies in Washington.

justinclift 4y ago
It also surveils politicians, higher end public servants, and other law-involved decision makers who you'd think would have a problem with it. Maybe there's a blackmail and bribery department looking at what those people have been writing? (/s) Lets see if that "backlash against big tech" thing actually goes anyone. One can hope. :)

phendrenad2 4y ago

Most people want free grammar-checking, what are you suggesting exactly?

deafpolygon 4y ago

Well, here is what Microsoft says on the privacy for this service: > By default, Microsoft Edge provides spelling and grammar checking using Microsoft Editor. When using Microsoft Editor, Microsoft Edge sends your typed text and a service token to a Microsoft cloud service over a secure HTTPS connection. The service token doesn't contain any user-identifiable information. A Microsoft cloud service then processes the text to detect spelling and grammar errors in your text. All your typed text that's sent to Microsoft is deleted immediately after processing occurs. No data is stored for any period of time. So, they don't keep any data using this. But it's unclear since they also do text prediction; which can be toggled separately in Edge. > If the Use text prediction toggle is turned on, Microsoft Edge sends the text in the text box, your top language from the browser setting, and a text box identifier to a Microsoft cloud service over a secure HTTPS connection. The text box identifier is not associated with your account. The Microsoft cloud service processes the text to generate a relevant text prediction. Typed characters and text predictions are cached for up to 30 days, for service quality and performance improvement purposes only. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whitepaper/#writing-assistance https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/privacy-whi...

justinclift 4y ago
> A Microsoft cloud service then processes the text to detect spelling and grammar errors in your text. All your typed text that's sent to Microsoft is deleted immediately after processing occurs. No data is stored for any period of time. Interestingly, if they also share the text with third parties, then every one of those statements could still be completely true.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  Do you think they are being deceptive?
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Who knows for sure as to the current state of things, and what they may do in future. But, it's the kind of hole in their wording they could drive a truck though. ;) Personally, I'd be very surprised if they're not using people's written text as training data for various "AI" efforts. Let alone sharing the data with other parties. Watching MS operate for a couple of decades has shown that if they see an opportunity to do something shitty, they'll probably take it. o_O

hulitu 4y ago

> At what point are some of the major government legal departments actually going to step up and sort this shit out? At the point when their love relationship with US will end up in divorce. So not in the near future.