4 ms·

Delphi designed in the 90s is still far superior to any web technology for building UI - you can make a complete standalone app in a few hours instead of weeks.

by bitL 4y ago

Delphi designed in the 90s is still far superior to any web technology for building UI - you can make a complete standalone app in a few hours instead of weeks. IMO JavaScript was pushed by some large corps in order to commoditize developers and also because that was about as much programming as many decision makers were capable of understanding. Now we have the Node.js/React/Electron cancer everywhere making simple things overcomplicated for 99.9% of use cases.

thiht 4y ago
> Delphi designed in the 90s is still far superior to any web technology for building UI Then where is it? Also, I can make a standalone app in a few hours using Electron. I guess it would take me more than a few weeks with Delphi, given that I don’t know anything about it. So your point might just be that you know Delphi and not JavaScript.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  >Then where is it? Of all people, tech workers and enthusiasts should know that being superior doesn't ensure survival.
  - thiht 4y ago
    It depends how you define superior. I believe Electron and web technologies are superior for UIs given their pragmatism and ubiquity. Are there even Delphi enthusiasts still, or is it just nostalgia? Would the people that claim Delphi is superior use it?
    - riceart 4y ago
      > Are there even Delphi enthusiasts still, or is it just nostalgia? There are. There is a major commercially relevant DAW produced in Delphi. You can figure out which one. > I believe Electron and web technologies are superior for UIs given their pragmatism and ubiquity. This opinion is questionable given a clearly narrow view. Outside of this bubble they aren’t ubiquitous. There are plenty of LOB apps still used and maintained in VB6. One of the most heavily used applications in the US federal government is a C++Builder app (the C++ RAD counterpart to Delphi) - it is a piece of crap, but that’s a factor of the authors not the language - and when it was first released more than 20 years ago it started up in a few seconds on hardware at the time with slow spinning disks! Looking at the vast majority of LOB web apps - nothing has gotten better on that front.
      - bitL 4y ago
        Wow, FL Studio is written in Delphi? The UI feels like from some futuristic alien spaceship!
- blub 4y ago
  Murdered by Microsoft, like many products and companies which dared challenge them. https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/use-cnet-shopping-to-seek-out-the-best-deals/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/use-cnet-sho... One of the employees they lured away was Anders Hejlsberg, former chief architect of Delphi, which built C# at Microsoft. WinForms had an uncanny resemblance to VCL. Before that Microsoft had tried to extend-embrace-extinguish Java with J++, but got sued by Sun into submission. MS were utter scum back then, but Borland’s mistakes certainly didn’t help either.
codethief 4y ago
What exactly made it superior? I remember working with Delphi in high school and, in hindsight, it seemed much less powerful than web technologies.
- bitL 4y ago
  Simplicity, great documentation, IDE that guided you, WYSIWIG, easily multi-threaded when needed. Delphi/C++ Builder is a business failure, not a technological one. No ugly hacks for things like CORS/XSS needed. Electron is basically repackaging a distributed app into a desktop one, so it's clear it's going to be way more complex than a primarily desktop-based dev system.
  - rhaway84773 4y ago
    There’s no reason an Electron (or any other web based) app needs to be distributed. Consider VSCode. There’s nothing distributed about it.
    - ColonelPhantom 4y ago
      VSCode is distributed! It supports connecting to a remote VSCode "server", so that you can edit files over SSH for example. Of course, 99% of the time the server and client are ran together, so you don't notice it is distributed. But that doesn't mean it isn't.
graboid 4y ago
Hours instead of weeks? What makes you assume that? An experienced web developer can iterate pretty damn fast. I can understand the appeal and advantages of using native GUI tech. Really. But there is a reason people use stuff like Electron/Tauri/Wails. Web tech has seen so much investment, and as a result, you now basically have a app platform that runs anyhwere, offers a huge ecosystem and a great developer experience. Which I never found to be matched in any other GUI toolkit. If there was a GUI toolkit that offered me all of this without requiring the bloat of a browser, then I would switch in an instant. It's just not there.
- bitL 4y ago
  I was specifically mentioning building UI, i.e. the process of creating a set of screens with events to carry out the required functionality, which was what Delphi shined in. Web tech is about building distributed apps, so while you might repackage them as desktop ones using Electron, it's a massive overkill for 99.9% use cases and thoroughly suboptimal. Yet there aren't any GUI builders worth anything after 20 years of web tech and using libraries like React just increases cognitive load instead of reducing it by being unnecessarily verbose for little benefit.
  - graboid 4y ago
    If I build a desktop app using one of the above-mentioned technologies, there is almost nothing "distributed" about it. HTML, CSS, Javascript. Which is where 99% of my UI building happens. The only thing "distributed" what comes to my mind and what I think you mean is what would be an API call in the browser, to fetch some data that the frontend needs. The equivalent in Electron/Tauri/etc. is usually some bridging API that you can call instead. I never missed any GUI builder. Browser dev tools are phenomenal IMO, you can drag&drop elements across your layout, change any part of your styles and instantly see the effects, measure rendering performance, memory consumption, debug your Javascript or simulate different screen sizes. About React, nobody forces you to use it. There is a myriad of frontend frameworks, at all levels of complexity. If you feel your app is so simple that you don't need any framework, you can do without. Frameworks (and again, there is a huge world outside React!) came up because they make managing state in complex UIs easier.
rwalle 4y ago
Your comment is an example where people have no idea what they are talking about but just making things up. "In a few hours instead of weeks" I'd argue that the web stack only takes less time, not more. JavaScript is popular because developers like it, because it works well, not because some "large corps" "push" for things to happen. There are more than scattered evidences to show that. Next time, come up with something better and more convincing when hating the web stack.
- bitL 4y ago
  JavaScript is popular because people like half-baked hacky things that give them instant rush/feeling they can do something (i.e. show something basic in a browser). So much effort was spent on painting a lipstick on this pig or to replace it but nothing succeeded unfortunately. It's the equivalent of some fast food in mental domain. If I wanted to damage programmers' minds I would push for this atrocity to become a universal standard. The quality of most node.js modules is horrible which never disappoint in reinventing existing things from other languages/frameworks in inferior ways.
MrPatan 4y ago
Far superior... at making basic 90s UIs that nobody else wants today. For better or worse, but the reality is nobody wants them anymore. Branding is a thing. When a client wanted something different you used to tell them "You can't have that" and they had to take it, because there was no other option. The instant web enabled and normalized arbitrary UIs, "You can't have that" Delphi people simply went out of business. Because it turned out Delphi was far inferior at doing what people actually wanted.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > The instant web enabled and normalized arbitrary UIs, "You can't have that" Delphi people simply went out of business. Because it turned out Delphi was far inferior at doing what people actually wanted. What people think they want and what would make them happier and productive in the long run are different things. They buy junk food and complain they don't feel well. They buy Marvel movies, but in the long run stop going to the theater because movies aren't interesting anymore. Modern web apps are basically the incarnation of that principle. Are people really happier and more productive with shitty web apps? Because it seems like everyone complains about Slack, Teams, etc. Google Docs certainly doesn't have the die-hard fans Word Perfect still has. Apple still collects quite a premium remembering that people don't know what they want and need people with judgment to make decisions for them.
- blub 4y ago
  “Far superior... at making basic 90s UIs that nobody else wants today. For better or worse, but the reality is nobody wants them anymore. Branding is a thing. When a client wanted something different you used to tell them "You can't have that" and they had to take it, because there was no other option.” Were you actually there in the 90s and 00s or are you just imagining how things could have been? I personally developed fully skinned UIs in Delphi’s cousin, C++ builder on Windows in the late 90s and in the 00s. In addition to that, VCL apps had a rich palette of drag & drop widgets, including commercial products that were better than anything the competition was offering, including Microsoft. I used a lot of Windows apps over the years and literally everything from custom windows shapes, colors and background, to custom widgets and cursors, etc I’ve ever seen was possible to develop in Delphi or C++ builder. ”The instant web enabled and normalized arbitrary UIs, "You can't have that" Delphi people simply went out of business. Because it turned out Delphi was far inferior at doing what people actually wanted.” Delphi was mismanaged by Borland, sabotaged by Microsoft and they charged a ton of money for the software. Starting with WinForms and C# MS finally had a reasonably competitive alternative to offer. The web had nothing to do with Delphi’s decline. In the 00s we used a combination of back-end languages with some JS for enhancement and Flash for special cases or multimedia-heavy sites. Macromedia Flash remained the most capable web-based technology for a long time after Delphi was already in decline. As a former Flash developer, I can say confidently that Flash and Delphi/C++ Builder served different use-cases and were not competing with each-other.

by bitL 4y ago

thiht 4y ago

> Delphi designed in the 90s is still far superior to any web technology for building UI Then where is it? Also, I can make a standalone app in a few hours using Electron. I guess it would take me more than a few weeks with Delphi, given that I don’t know anything about it. So your point might just be that you know Delphi and not JavaScript.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
>Then where is it? Of all people, tech workers and enthusiasts should know that being superior doesn't ensure survival.
- thiht 4y ago
  It depends how you define superior. I believe Electron and web technologies are superior for UIs given their pragmatism and ubiquity. Are there even Delphi enthusiasts still, or is it just nostalgia? Would the people that claim Delphi is superior use it?
  - riceart 4y ago
    > Are there even Delphi enthusiasts still, or is it just nostalgia? There are. There is a major commercially relevant DAW produced in Delphi. You can figure out which one. > I believe Electron and web technologies are superior for UIs given their pragmatism and ubiquity. This opinion is questionable given a clearly narrow view. Outside of this bubble they aren’t ubiquitous. There are plenty of LOB apps still used and maintained in VB6. One of the most heavily used applications in the US federal government is a C++Builder app (the C++ RAD counterpart to Delphi) - it is a piece of crap, but that’s a factor of the authors not the language - and when it was first released more than 20 years ago it started up in a few seconds on hardware at the time with slow spinning disks! Looking at the vast majority of LOB web apps - nothing has gotten better on that front.
    - bitL 4y ago
      Wow, FL Studio is written in Delphi? The UI feels like from some futuristic alien spaceship!
blub 4y ago
Murdered by Microsoft, like many products and companies which dared challenge them. https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/use-cnet-shopping-to-seek-out-the-best-deals/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/use-cnet-sho... One of the employees they lured away was Anders Hejlsberg, former chief architect of Delphi, which built C# at Microsoft. WinForms had an uncanny resemblance to VCL. Before that Microsoft had tried to extend-embrace-extinguish Java with J++, but got sued by Sun into submission. MS were utter scum back then, but Borland’s mistakes certainly didn’t help either.

codethief 4y ago

What exactly made it superior? I remember working with Delphi in high school and, in hindsight, it seemed much less powerful than web technologies.

bitL 4y ago
Simplicity, great documentation, IDE that guided you, WYSIWIG, easily multi-threaded when needed. Delphi/C++ Builder is a business failure, not a technological one. No ugly hacks for things like CORS/XSS needed. Electron is basically repackaging a distributed app into a desktop one, so it's clear it's going to be way more complex than a primarily desktop-based dev system.
- rhaway84773 4y ago
  There’s no reason an Electron (or any other web based) app needs to be distributed. Consider VSCode. There’s nothing distributed about it.
  - ColonelPhantom 4y ago
    VSCode is distributed! It supports connecting to a remote VSCode "server", so that you can edit files over SSH for example. Of course, 99% of the time the server and client are ran together, so you don't notice it is distributed. But that doesn't mean it isn't.

graboid 4y ago

Hours instead of weeks? What makes you assume that? An experienced web developer can iterate pretty damn fast. I can understand the appeal and advantages of using native GUI tech. Really. But there is a reason people use stuff like Electron/Tauri/Wails. Web tech has seen so much investment, and as a result, you now basically have a app platform that runs anyhwere, offers a huge ecosystem and a great developer experience. Which I never found to be matched in any other GUI toolkit. If there was a GUI toolkit that offered me all of this without requiring the bloat of a browser, then I would switch in an instant. It's just not there.

bitL 4y ago
I was specifically mentioning building UI, i.e. the process of creating a set of screens with events to carry out the required functionality, which was what Delphi shined in. Web tech is about building distributed apps, so while you might repackage them as desktop ones using Electron, it's a massive overkill for 99.9% use cases and thoroughly suboptimal. Yet there aren't any GUI builders worth anything after 20 years of web tech and using libraries like React just increases cognitive load instead of reducing it by being unnecessarily verbose for little benefit.
- graboid 4y ago
  If I build a desktop app using one of the above-mentioned technologies, there is almost nothing "distributed" about it. HTML, CSS, Javascript. Which is where 99% of my UI building happens. The only thing "distributed" what comes to my mind and what I think you mean is what would be an API call in the browser, to fetch some data that the frontend needs. The equivalent in Electron/Tauri/etc. is usually some bridging API that you can call instead. I never missed any GUI builder. Browser dev tools are phenomenal IMO, you can drag&drop elements across your layout, change any part of your styles and instantly see the effects, measure rendering performance, memory consumption, debug your Javascript or simulate different screen sizes. About React, nobody forces you to use it. There is a myriad of frontend frameworks, at all levels of complexity. If you feel your app is so simple that you don't need any framework, you can do without. Frameworks (and again, there is a huge world outside React!) came up because they make managing state in complex UIs easier.

rwalle 4y ago

Your comment is an example where people have no idea what they are talking about but just making things up. "In a few hours instead of weeks" I'd argue that the web stack only takes less time, not more. JavaScript is popular because developers like it, because it works well, not because some "large corps" "push" for things to happen. There are more than scattered evidences to show that. Next time, come up with something better and more convincing when hating the web stack.

bitL 4y ago
JavaScript is popular because people like half-baked hacky things that give them instant rush/feeling they can do something (i.e. show something basic in a browser). So much effort was spent on painting a lipstick on this pig or to replace it but nothing succeeded unfortunately. It's the equivalent of some fast food in mental domain. If I wanted to damage programmers' minds I would push for this atrocity to become a universal standard. The quality of most node.js modules is horrible which never disappoint in reinventing existing things from other languages/frameworks in inferior ways.

MrPatan 4y ago

Far superior... at making basic 90s UIs that nobody else wants today. For better or worse, but the reality is nobody wants them anymore. Branding is a thing. When a client wanted something different you used to tell them "You can't have that" and they had to take it, because there was no other option. The instant web enabled and normalized arbitrary UIs, "You can't have that" Delphi people simply went out of business. Because it turned out Delphi was far inferior at doing what people actually wanted.

rayiner 4y ago
> The instant web enabled and normalized arbitrary UIs, "You can't have that" Delphi people simply went out of business. Because it turned out Delphi was far inferior at doing what people actually wanted. What people think they want and what would make them happier and productive in the long run are different things. They buy junk food and complain they don't feel well. They buy Marvel movies, but in the long run stop going to the theater because movies aren't interesting anymore. Modern web apps are basically the incarnation of that principle. Are people really happier and more productive with shitty web apps? Because it seems like everyone complains about Slack, Teams, etc. Google Docs certainly doesn't have the die-hard fans Word Perfect still has. Apple still collects quite a premium remembering that people don't know what they want and need people with judgment to make decisions for them.
blub 4y ago
“Far superior... at making basic 90s UIs that nobody else wants today. For better or worse, but the reality is nobody wants them anymore. Branding is a thing. When a client wanted something different you used to tell them "You can't have that" and they had to take it, because there was no other option.” Were you actually there in the 90s and 00s or are you just imagining how things could have been? I personally developed fully skinned UIs in Delphi’s cousin, C++ builder on Windows in the late 90s and in the 00s. In addition to that, VCL apps had a rich palette of drag & drop widgets, including commercial products that were better than anything the competition was offering, including Microsoft. I used a lot of Windows apps over the years and literally everything from custom windows shapes, colors and background, to custom widgets and cursors, etc I’ve ever seen was possible to develop in Delphi or C++ builder. ”The instant web enabled and normalized arbitrary UIs, "You can't have that" Delphi people simply went out of business. Because it turned out Delphi was far inferior at doing what people actually wanted.” Delphi was mismanaged by Borland, sabotaged by Microsoft and they charged a ton of money for the software. Starting with WinForms and C# MS finally had a reasonably competitive alternative to offer. The web had nothing to do with Delphi’s decline. In the 00s we used a combination of back-end languages with some JS for enhancement and Flash for special cases or multimedia-heavy sites. Macromedia Flash remained the most capable web-based technology for a long time after Delphi was already in decline. As a former Flash developer, I can say confidently that Flash and Delphi/C++ Builder served different use-cases and were not competing with each-other.