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What have I twisted? Look at my opening post, to which you replied "Please stop spreading lies". What was the lie again? You doubled down and had to twist like

by D_Alex 4y ago

What have I twisted? Look at my opening post, to which you replied "Please stop spreading lies". What was the lie again? You doubled down and had to twist like an eel to try and justify your statements. As for what I think: I think that we, "the West", are playing a stupid and evil role in this conflict. Furthermore, we are spreading misinformation in order to manufacture consent among the public, often in an incredibly crude manner. I'm prepared to discuss this, but maybe one thing - you pick which - at a time.

vel0city 4y ago
What you've twisted is you're essentially arguing the Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian. Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Western and an expansion of NATO influence, he says so in the speech I linked above. If the special operation is having to defend against Western influence, and the Kyiv regime isn't Western, why is he shelling the Kyiv regime? Your lie is arguing Putin never said they had to defend against Ukranian aggression. In my quote above, he talked about needing to act because of aggressive actions from the Kyiv regime. So either the Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian to you, or Putin did say they needed to defend against Ukranian aggression. Putin feels the Kyiv regime is an extension of Western NATO influence, and he stated he had to act in defense against their aggression in DNR/LNR/Crimea. This is all in the speech I linked, not twisting any of his words at all. So yes, Putin has absolutely argued he had to defend against "the regime in Kyiv", which I think most of the world would take to mean Ukraine. So it's pretty fair to say Russia phrased this as "defend against Ukraine", unless you are arguing the regime in Kyiv isn't Ukranian or Putin and the Kremlin aren't Russian. Could you answer if you believe the Kyiv regime is Ukranian?
- D_Alex 4y ago
  >Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian I'm not actually arguing that. However: Zelensky was elected largely by the voters in the eastern regions of Ukraine, and largely because he promised to bring peace to those regions. He has failed in that promise and betrayed his voters. Most likely because of Western influence. >Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Western ... ... he says so in the speech I linked above.... etc. I read the entire thing and I don't see it. Which paragraph are you talking about? Is it this one: "...the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia. They will undoubtedly try to bring war to Crimea just as they have done in Donbass..." because that's certainly not about "Ukrainians" in the sense that you keep on implying. >Could you answer if you believe the Kyiv regime is Ukranian? Let me try. The current Kiev regime is made up of Ukrainian nationals. However, it is no longer acting in the interests of Ukrainian people. It has become a sock puppet of the NATO countries. So I believe that it is "Ukrainian" in the same sense that the ruling party of China is "communist" or that Donald Trump is a "conservative". Hope that answers your question.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Westernized. He doesn't directly state this as a single line, but you don't need to look too deep in his statements to understand this. Unless you're thinking he's talking about someone else when talking about far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis here. "Focused on their own goals, the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia." "Any further expansion of the North Atlantic alliance’s infrastructure or the ongoing efforts to gain a military foothold of the Ukrainian territory are unacceptable for us." What foothold would he be talking about here if not a Westernization of the regime in Kyiv? "...are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine" > because that's certainly not about "Ukrainians" in the sense that you keep on implying. What nationality are those people who are those "far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine"? Isn't he referring to the regime in Kyiv and its supporters with this language? Is Zelenskyy not a Ukrainian? Are those people in the Ukrainian army with the Ukrainian flag on their uniforms not Ukrainian? What nationality are those nationalists supposedly fighting for? Talk about gaslighting.
    - D_Alex 4y ago
      >Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Westernized. He doesn't directly state this as a single line... If you dismiss what he is saying directly, and look for some obscure meaning instead, with some help of semantic distortion you will find what you want to find. >What foothold would he be talking about here Very obviously NATO foothold, that's the "North Atlantic alliance". >What nationality are those people who are those "far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine"?... etc. They are Ukrainians. And Ku Klux Klan members are American. But you can't interchange the terms willy-nilly. Eg it is wrong to say "Americans advocate the use of violence against people of colour and Jews".
      - vel0city 4y ago
        "...the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia." > And Ku Klux Klan members are American. But you can't interchange the terms willy-nilly. Eg it is wrong to say "Americans advocate the use of violence against people of colour and Jews". Those leading NATO countries are supporting the regime in Kyiv, the government headed by Zelenskyy, which he also "will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia." Ergo, by Putin's own words, Zelenskyy == a far right nationalist/neo-Nazi. If I say a rectangle is a four sided shape with all right angles, and describe a shape with four sides and all right angles, I just called it rectangle without actually using that word directly, right? This is very different from your example with the KKK, as the leaders of the KKK aren't currently the leadership of the US government. If the leadership of the US government was composed of largely KKK members and they started instituting KKK policies, I would agree with that statement. Are you seriously suggesting that Putin explicitly wasn't connecting Zelenskyy to the "far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis" here?

by D_Alex 4y ago

vel0city 4y ago

What you've twisted is you're essentially arguing the Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian. Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Western and an expansion of NATO influence, he says so in the speech I linked above. If the special operation is having to defend against Western influence, and the Kyiv regime isn't Western, why is he shelling the Kyiv regime? Your lie is arguing Putin never said they had to defend against Ukranian aggression. In my quote above, he talked about needing to act because of aggressive actions from the Kyiv regime. So either the Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian to you, or Putin did say they needed to defend against Ukranian aggression. Putin feels the Kyiv regime is an extension of Western NATO influence, and he stated he had to act in defense against their aggression in DNR/LNR/Crimea. This is all in the speech I linked, not twisting any of his words at all. So yes, Putin has absolutely argued he had to defend against "the regime in Kyiv", which I think most of the world would take to mean Ukraine. So it's pretty fair to say Russia phrased this as "defend against Ukraine", unless you are arguing the regime in Kyiv isn't Ukranian or Putin and the Kremlin aren't Russian. Could you answer if you believe the Kyiv regime is Ukranian?

D_Alex 4y ago
>Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian I'm not actually arguing that. However: Zelensky was elected largely by the voters in the eastern regions of Ukraine, and largely because he promised to bring peace to those regions. He has failed in that promise and betrayed his voters. Most likely because of Western influence. >Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Western ... ... he says so in the speech I linked above.... etc. I read the entire thing and I don't see it. Which paragraph are you talking about? Is it this one: "...the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia. They will undoubtedly try to bring war to Crimea just as they have done in Donbass..." because that's certainly not about "Ukrainians" in the sense that you keep on implying. >Could you answer if you believe the Kyiv regime is Ukranian? Let me try. The current Kiev regime is made up of Ukrainian nationals. However, it is no longer acting in the interests of Ukrainian people. It has become a sock puppet of the NATO countries. So I believe that it is "Ukrainian" in the same sense that the ruling party of China is "communist" or that Donald Trump is a "conservative". Hope that answers your question.
- vel0city 4y ago
  Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Westernized. He doesn't directly state this as a single line, but you don't need to look too deep in his statements to understand this. Unless you're thinking he's talking about someone else when talking about far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis here. "Focused on their own goals, the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia." "Any further expansion of the North Atlantic alliance’s infrastructure or the ongoing efforts to gain a military foothold of the Ukrainian territory are unacceptable for us." What foothold would he be talking about here if not a Westernization of the regime in Kyiv? "...are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine" > because that's certainly not about "Ukrainians" in the sense that you keep on implying. What nationality are those people who are those "far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine"? Isn't he referring to the regime in Kyiv and its supporters with this language? Is Zelenskyy not a Ukrainian? Are those people in the Ukrainian army with the Ukrainian flag on their uniforms not Ukrainian? What nationality are those nationalists supposedly fighting for? Talk about gaslighting.
  - D_Alex 4y ago
    >Putin sees the Kyiv regime as Westernized. He doesn't directly state this as a single line... If you dismiss what he is saying directly, and look for some obscure meaning instead, with some help of semantic distortion you will find what you want to find. >What foothold would he be talking about here Very obviously NATO foothold, that's the "North Atlantic alliance". >What nationality are those people who are those "far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine"?... etc. They are Ukrainians. And Ku Klux Klan members are American. But you can't interchange the terms willy-nilly. Eg it is wrong to say "Americans advocate the use of violence against people of colour and Jews".
    - vel0city 4y ago
      "...the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia." > And Ku Klux Klan members are American. But you can't interchange the terms willy-nilly. Eg it is wrong to say "Americans advocate the use of violence against people of colour and Jews". Those leading NATO countries are supporting the regime in Kyiv, the government headed by Zelenskyy, which he also "will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia." Ergo, by Putin's own words, Zelenskyy == a far right nationalist/neo-Nazi. If I say a rectangle is a four sided shape with all right angles, and describe a shape with four sides and all right angles, I just called it rectangle without actually using that word directly, right? This is very different from your example with the KKK, as the leaders of the KKK aren't currently the leadership of the US government. If the leadership of the US government was composed of largely KKK members and they started instituting KKK policies, I would agree with that statement. Are you seriously suggesting that Putin explicitly wasn't connecting Zelenskyy to the "far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis" here?