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Honesty I think tools like GPT are going to cause more people to learn to code, not less. I've been using GPT to write very simple utilities in languages I am

Honesty I think tools like GPT are going to cause more people to learn to code, not less. I've been using GPT to write very simple utilities in languages I am unfamiliar with, and for me, there's no faster way to pick up a language then to see an example program where you already know exactly what it does. (Or is supposed to do, finding the small mistakes that GPT sometimes makes also helps learn things, ironically.)

shaunkoh 4y ago
Yes exactly. I had a specific project in mind, and ChatGPT was able to give me step by step instructions how to build it. It’s like having a private tutor. That’s transformative for folks like me that struggle to get through generic 12 week courses, but want their learning experience scaffolded around a project they’re already motivated to work on.
croes 4y ago
Do people learn more languages since translation tools exist?
- saurik 4y ago
  I don't think that analogy works as it isn't about learning languages so much as knowing how to write (but I also can't quite fix the analogy, sadly). A better one (but one which doesn't leave software engineering): as programming languages have gotten easier to use and tooling has gotten better making programmers more effective, more programmers have been needed to write ever more code despite them all having to expend much less effort if they were to merely do the same things... because, and this is key, the tooling now allowance people to tackle ever more complicated problems leading to new things that can be achieved.
  - croes 4y ago
    I think it fits because ChatGPT writes code for you like DeepL and Google Translate translates for you. Easier tooling is more like programms like Duolingo and Babbel. If you totally trust the former you don't need to learn anything, the latter enforces to do something on your own.
    - saurik 4y ago
      Google Translate is translating for me, but it isn't reading for me. I think more people bother to both read and write more content of higher importance because of the existence of Google Translate, as it allows people of every language to have a wider audience and to waste less of their effort on translations of their content. And that's where it is a complex analogy for me to use and fix, because I get what you are wanting to point at, and yet it doesn't seem like the relevant thing to measure. I believe that large language models automatically writing code will result in many more programs existing of much higher complexity and I simply do not see how that is going to result in fewer software developers. I do believe it will change how we do this job and the level of scale and abstraction we are dealing with, but if you think that the world of post-AI software is going to involve a bunch of people building stuff that looks as simple as it is today in 2023 just without software developers I think you are going to be surprised, as frankly you don't need a software developer at all to build most marketing websites people need--we solved that problem years ago with WYSIWYG tooling--and yet somehow every marketing website is now more complicated than ever before because the goalposts moved. Imagine when every single thing you interact with is going to be some crazy 3D environment with animated characters providing immersive abuse^Hengagement designed to close the deal. Sure, you could just generate a static website for your project but that's so early 2020s it hurts, right? And yeah: the team that builds that might be doing a ton of development using AIs but it isn't going to be just "outsource it to the AI" until the AI gets smart enough to replace us entirely and at that point we probably only have a few more years of being alive anyway ;P.
      - croes 4y ago
        >I simply do not see how that is going to result in fewer software developers. One simple reason: demand. If software developing is more than a hobby you need to get paid, and ChatGPT will be cheaper than entry level programmers, so it will be hard to get entry level jobs and the experience to reach the next level while getting paid.
famahar 4y ago
ChatGPT has made me enjoy making games again. Trying to do something specific in Unity usually meant having to sift through old outdated forums or long videos. Now I can prototype ideas just by asking. Can't wait until this is built into Unity so it can assist with more than just code. Something like RunwayML but for game engines.
HervalFreire 4y ago
I mean you're ignoring an obvious trend. These LLMs are improving rapidly. If the improvement continues, the LLMs can reach a point in skill where they can replace us. Your statement and this article is gambling on the status quo. That humans will always be better then AI. Why is this causing so much of a ruckus right now? Pretty much everyone knows chatGPT is pretty stupid when compared to a human. It's causing a ruckus because it's a herald for a possible future where the AI becomes superior to human problem solving. It's not a unrealistic proposition given that chess AI and go AI has already surpassed us.
- oska 4y ago
  Using the achievements of machine learning (not 'AI') in chess and go, which are created, constrained game spaces, to tout the promise of 'a possible future where the AI becomes superior to human problem solving' is either the spruiking of a fraudster or the rantings of a fantasist.
  - HervalFreire 4y ago
    Constrained game lol? You know arithmetic isn't constrained right? Computers can fucking beat us in arithmetic without even implementing an AI or utilizing machine learning. Let me put it bluntly.. you have to be a literal idiot to think a "constrained game" is a factor here. Not only that.. your argument in itself is self defeating EVEN if "constrained games" WAS a factor. A machine learning system beat the best human humanity had to offer at a game that is fucking constrained? Literally, the more pathetically simplistic the task the worse Humans perform against an AI. That's the overall logic of your genius argument. I think one thing is proven by your response. That basically certain people are just not smart or intelligent. You're pretty much below average. This isn't an insult. I'm just pointing out the truth here. I'm sorry but you can't even come up with a coherent argument against the "rantings of a fraudster." Consider measuring your IQ to verify.
    - lboyd 4y ago
      Wow, straight off the deep end.

shaunkoh 4y ago

Yes exactly. I had a specific project in mind, and ChatGPT was able to give me step by step instructions how to build it. It’s like having a private tutor. That’s transformative for folks like me that struggle to get through generic 12 week courses, but want their learning experience scaffolded around a project they’re already motivated to work on.

croes 4y ago

Do people learn more languages since translation tools exist?

saurik 4y ago
I don't think that analogy works as it isn't about learning languages so much as knowing how to write (but I also can't quite fix the analogy, sadly). A better one (but one which doesn't leave software engineering): as programming languages have gotten easier to use and tooling has gotten better making programmers more effective, more programmers have been needed to write ever more code despite them all having to expend much less effort if they were to merely do the same things... because, and this is key, the tooling now allowance people to tackle ever more complicated problems leading to new things that can be achieved.
- croes 4y ago
  I think it fits because ChatGPT writes code for you like DeepL and Google Translate translates for you. Easier tooling is more like programms like Duolingo and Babbel. If you totally trust the former you don't need to learn anything, the latter enforces to do something on your own.
  - saurik 4y ago
    Google Translate is translating for me, but it isn't reading for me. I think more people bother to both read and write more content of higher importance because of the existence of Google Translate, as it allows people of every language to have a wider audience and to waste less of their effort on translations of their content. And that's where it is a complex analogy for me to use and fix, because I get what you are wanting to point at, and yet it doesn't seem like the relevant thing to measure. I believe that large language models automatically writing code will result in many more programs existing of much higher complexity and I simply do not see how that is going to result in fewer software developers. I do believe it will change how we do this job and the level of scale and abstraction we are dealing with, but if you think that the world of post-AI software is going to involve a bunch of people building stuff that looks as simple as it is today in 2023 just without software developers I think you are going to be surprised, as frankly you don't need a software developer at all to build most marketing websites people need--we solved that problem years ago with WYSIWYG tooling--and yet somehow every marketing website is now more complicated than ever before because the goalposts moved. Imagine when every single thing you interact with is going to be some crazy 3D environment with animated characters providing immersive abuse^Hengagement designed to close the deal. Sure, you could just generate a static website for your project but that's so early 2020s it hurts, right? And yeah: the team that builds that might be doing a ton of development using AIs but it isn't going to be just "outsource it to the AI" until the AI gets smart enough to replace us entirely and at that point we probably only have a few more years of being alive anyway ;P.
    - croes 4y ago
      >I simply do not see how that is going to result in fewer software developers. One simple reason: demand. If software developing is more than a hobby you need to get paid, and ChatGPT will be cheaper than entry level programmers, so it will be hard to get entry level jobs and the experience to reach the next level while getting paid.

famahar 4y ago

ChatGPT has made me enjoy making games again. Trying to do something specific in Unity usually meant having to sift through old outdated forums or long videos. Now I can prototype ideas just by asking. Can't wait until this is built into Unity so it can assist with more than just code. Something like RunwayML but for game engines.

HervalFreire 4y ago

I mean you're ignoring an obvious trend. These LLMs are improving rapidly. If the improvement continues, the LLMs can reach a point in skill where they can replace us. Your statement and this article is gambling on the status quo. That humans will always be better then AI. Why is this causing so much of a ruckus right now? Pretty much everyone knows chatGPT is pretty stupid when compared to a human. It's causing a ruckus because it's a herald for a possible future where the AI becomes superior to human problem solving. It's not a unrealistic proposition given that chess AI and go AI has already surpassed us.

oska 4y ago
Using the achievements of machine learning (not 'AI') in chess and go, which are created, constrained game spaces, to tout the promise of 'a possible future where the AI becomes superior to human problem solving' is either the spruiking of a fraudster or the rantings of a fantasist.
- HervalFreire 4y ago
  Constrained game lol? You know arithmetic isn't constrained right? Computers can fucking beat us in arithmetic without even implementing an AI or utilizing machine learning. Let me put it bluntly.. you have to be a literal idiot to think a "constrained game" is a factor here. Not only that.. your argument in itself is self defeating EVEN if "constrained games" WAS a factor. A machine learning system beat the best human humanity had to offer at a game that is fucking constrained? Literally, the more pathetically simplistic the task the worse Humans perform against an AI. That's the overall logic of your genius argument. I think one thing is proven by your response. That basically certain people are just not smart or intelligent. You're pretty much below average. This isn't an insult. I'm just pointing out the truth here. I'm sorry but you can't even come up with a coherent argument against the "rantings of a fraudster." Consider measuring your IQ to verify.
  - lboyd 4y ago
    Wow, straight off the deep end.