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Well, the ICC has just -rightly IMO - put out a warrant for the arrest of Vladimir Putin. I’m sure the warrant for Bush Jr. is next. Oh wait, they didn’t issue

Well, the ICC has just -rightly IMO - put out a warrant for the arrest of Vladimir Putin. I’m sure the warrant for Bush Jr. is next. Oh wait, they didn’t issue the warrant because of aggressive war, it’s due to forced deportations of children, something that AFAIK didn’t really happen in Iraq. That’s convenient.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Well, the ICC has just -rightly IMO - put out a warrant for the arrest of Vladimir Putin. I’m sure the warrant for Bush Jr. is next. US actions in Iraq are not subject to ICC jurisdiction because: (1) THe US is not an ICC member, so the ICC’s jurisdiction over ICC members is not applicable, (2) Iraq is not an ICC member, so the ICC’s jurisdiction over crimes on the territories of ICC members is not applicable, (3) Iraq has not, as a non-member, acceded voluntarily to ICC jurisdiction over war crimes on its territory, so ICC’s jurisdiction over crimes on the territories of stats who have voluntarily acceded to its jurisdiction is not applicable. (4) The matter was not referred to the ICC by the UN Security Council, so the ICC's jurisdiction based on Security Council referral was not applicable, > Oh wait, they didn’t issue the warrant because of aggressive war, it’s due to forced deportations of children, something that AFAIK didn’t really happen in Iraq. That’s convenient. Had the ICC had jurisdiction over all applicable parties and territories at the time of the US invasion of Iraq, it could not have charged anyone for aggressive war, because the definition of the crime of aggression for the purposes of ICC process was not adopted until 2010, and the provisions making it prosecutable did not go into effect until 2018. Similarly, the ICC provisions on aggression cannot be used in Ukraine, since unlike other offenses (war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide) prosecutable by the ICC, the crime of aggression (except in cases of an UN Security Council referral, which bypasses other jurisdictional limits) is only prosecutable against State Parties to the Rome Statute who have ratified the amendments concerning the crime of aggression, and the matter in Ukraine is not subject to a Security Council referral and Russia is not a State Party to the Rome Statute. The Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine to the UN Human Rights Council released two days ago explicitly calls out this jurisdictional issue with regard to aggression and notes [footnotes elided] “The ICC is investigating alleged war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide in Ukraine. It does not have jurisdiction for the crime of aggression in Ukraine. Suggestions have been made to establish a special tribunal on aggression. Any such tribunal would have to coordinate with the ICC. Furthermore, it should have the required international legitimacy, both with respect to its establishment and functioning. Discussions about a new tribunal should be combined with efforts to amend the ICC Statute, so that the Court’s jurisdiction over aggression is identical to the other three crimes.” Also note that the warrants announced by the ICC in Ukraine may not be the only ones already issued; limited information about what are still technically secret warrants was published because the specific crimes appear to remain ongoing and it is hoped that the announcement of the warrants will deter further involvement in them. [1] [0] https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/A_HRC_52_62_AUV_EN.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies... [1] “The Chamber considered that the warrants are secret in order to protect victims and witnesses and also to safeguard the investigation. Nevertheless, mindful that the conduct addressed in the present situation is allegedly ongoing, and that the public awareness of the warrants may contribute to the prevention of the further commission of crimes, the Chamber considered that it is in the interests of justice to authorise the Registry to publicly disclose the existence of the warrants, the name of the suspects, the crimes for which the warrants are issued, and the modes of liability as established by the Chamber.” https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-is...
- rebuilder 4y ago
  Thank you, that was quite informative. Russia is not a member of the ICC either, does that pose a jurisdiction issue?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Russia is not a member of the ICC either, does that pose a jurisdiction issue? At least one of these four things must apply for the ICC to have jurisdiction (excluding for aggression, which is more limited): (1) The accused party must be a national of a state party, (2) the alleged offense must have occurred on the territory of a state party, (3) exactly as either (1) or (2), but with “a state which has filed a declaration accepting jurisdiction as to its nationals or territory, as applicable” [in practice, this will presumably always be territory] in place of “a state party”. (4) the matter was referred to the court by the UNSC. Because Ukraine, while not a state party, has filed an open-ended declaration accepting ICC jurisdiction for offenses on its territory, such offenses, no matter the nationality of the accused, are subject to ICC jurisdiction.
lowkey 4y ago
Notably, the ICC isn’t the only organization that is involved in war crimes tribunals, nor was it the first. The US and all allied powers, including Russia, were signatories to the Nuremberg Principles[0] which we used to prosecute the Nazis for “waging a unilaterally aggressive war.” All signatories agreed this was a war crime. What’s changed? For the record, I think Putin should be tried for war crimes based on his invasion of Ukraine. I also believe the US should be held to the same standard. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles Edit: changed Nuremberg Code to Nuremberg Principles, Added reference

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Well, the ICC has just -rightly IMO - put out a warrant for the arrest of Vladimir Putin. I’m sure the warrant for Bush Jr. is next. US actions in Iraq are not subject to ICC jurisdiction because: (1) THe US is not an ICC member, so the ICC’s jurisdiction over ICC members is not applicable, (2) Iraq is not an ICC member, so the ICC’s jurisdiction over crimes on the territories of ICC members is not applicable, (3) Iraq has not, as a non-member, acceded voluntarily to ICC jurisdiction over war crimes on its territory, so ICC’s jurisdiction over crimes on the territories of stats who have voluntarily acceded to its jurisdiction is not applicable. (4) The matter was not referred to the ICC by the UN Security Council, so the ICC's jurisdiction based on Security Council referral was not applicable, > Oh wait, they didn’t issue the warrant because of aggressive war, it’s due to forced deportations of children, something that AFAIK didn’t really happen in Iraq. That’s convenient. Had the ICC had jurisdiction over all applicable parties and territories at the time of the US invasion of Iraq, it could not have charged anyone for aggressive war, because the definition of the crime of aggression for the purposes of ICC process was not adopted until 2010, and the provisions making it prosecutable did not go into effect until 2018. Similarly, the ICC provisions on aggression cannot be used in Ukraine, since unlike other offenses (war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide) prosecutable by the ICC, the crime of aggression (except in cases of an UN Security Council referral, which bypasses other jurisdictional limits) is only prosecutable against State Parties to the Rome Statute who have ratified the amendments concerning the crime of aggression, and the matter in Ukraine is not subject to a Security Council referral and Russia is not a State Party to the Rome Statute. The Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine to the UN Human Rights Council released two days ago explicitly calls out this jurisdictional issue with regard to aggression and notes [footnotes elided] “The ICC is investigating alleged war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide in Ukraine. It does not have jurisdiction for the crime of aggression in Ukraine. Suggestions have been made to establish a special tribunal on aggression. Any such tribunal would have to coordinate with the ICC. Furthermore, it should have the required international legitimacy, both with respect to its establishment and functioning. Discussions about a new tribunal should be combined with efforts to amend the ICC Statute, so that the Court’s jurisdiction over aggression is identical to the other three crimes.” Also note that the warrants announced by the ICC in Ukraine may not be the only ones already issued; limited information about what are still technically secret warrants was published because the specific crimes appear to remain ongoing and it is hoped that the announcement of the warrants will deter further involvement in them. [1] [0] https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/A_HRC_52_62_AUV_EN.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies... [1] “The Chamber considered that the warrants are secret in order to protect victims and witnesses and also to safeguard the investigation. Nevertheless, mindful that the conduct addressed in the present situation is allegedly ongoing, and that the public awareness of the warrants may contribute to the prevention of the further commission of crimes, the Chamber considered that it is in the interests of justice to authorise the Registry to publicly disclose the existence of the warrants, the name of the suspects, the crimes for which the warrants are issued, and the modes of liability as established by the Chamber.” https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-is...

rebuilder 4y ago
Thank you, that was quite informative. Russia is not a member of the ICC either, does that pose a jurisdiction issue?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Russia is not a member of the ICC either, does that pose a jurisdiction issue? At least one of these four things must apply for the ICC to have jurisdiction (excluding for aggression, which is more limited): (1) The accused party must be a national of a state party, (2) the alleged offense must have occurred on the territory of a state party, (3) exactly as either (1) or (2), but with “a state which has filed a declaration accepting jurisdiction as to its nationals or territory, as applicable” [in practice, this will presumably always be territory] in place of “a state party”. (4) the matter was referred to the court by the UNSC. Because Ukraine, while not a state party, has filed an open-ended declaration accepting ICC jurisdiction for offenses on its territory, such offenses, no matter the nationality of the accused, are subject to ICC jurisdiction.

lowkey 4y ago

Notably, the ICC isn’t the only organization that is involved in war crimes tribunals, nor was it the first. The US and all allied powers, including Russia, were signatories to the Nuremberg Principles[0] which we used to prosecute the Nazis for “waging a unilaterally aggressive war.” All signatories agreed this was a war crime. What’s changed? For the record, I think Putin should be tried for war crimes based on his invasion of Ukraine. I also believe the US should be held to the same standard. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles Edit: changed Nuremberg Code to Nuremberg Principles, Added reference