8 ms·

Trying to figure out what Epic's incentives are here (contributing to a competitor that doesn't make them money in any roundabout way I can see) Edit: Here's a

Trying to figure out what Epic's incentives are here (contributing to a competitor that doesn't make them money in any roundabout way I can see) Edit: Here's a weird theory, maybe Epic doesn't see Godot as a competitor to Unreal, but does see it as a competitor to Unity, and hopes it'll spell doom for Unity (which is Unreal's only real competitor)

danbolt 4y ago
I think Godot’s workflow and structure is closer to Unity’s, so this strikes me as Epic trying to commoditize their competition.
- brundolf 4y ago
  Jinx :)
- ChadNauseam 4y ago
  Just so you know, the original version of this quote was "commoditize their complement", not "commoditize their competition"
  - colordrops 4y ago
    You all have been reading hacker news recently too I see.
    - m463 4y ago
      it all goes back to joel on software from 2002: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/
  - danbolt 4y ago
    Yeah, I had looked up the term to double-check before posting, but I felt that it didn’t quite fit as a developer picking Unreal was unlikely to also use Unity for a game.
  - johnyzee 4y ago
    But that's not what they are doing. Godot/Unity are not complements to Unreal. Epic are, in fact, commoditizing their competition, which is low-end, indie-friendly games development platforms.
crazysim 4y ago
Pre-emptively stave off the anti-trust!
tpmx 4y ago
What's the risk? Godot is no threat to Unreal Engine.
- brundolf 4y ago
  I tend to disagree, Godot's been putting out some really impressive graphics improvements lately. But it's possible Epic agrees with you
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - tpmx 4y ago
    Please do realize that according to your own web site (https://www.brandons.me/ https://www.brandons.me/) you're a javascript developer having opinions on why Godot is supposedly catching up with Unreal Engine to the point that it's becoming a threat.
    - TulliusCicero 4y ago
      This is a very strange way of doing a personal attack.
      - tpmx 4y ago
        I do apologize. That was wrong of me to write. Sorry!
    - zztop44 4y ago
      I am also a JavaScript developer and hold the same opinion. Who knows how many of us there are out there
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
mkl95 4y ago
Embrace, extend, and extinguish
- andybak 4y ago
  Doesn't really make sense in this case unless you have any specific insight?
gl-prod 4y ago
Get money from people selling games on the store?
- brundolf 4y ago
  This is about them distributing the engine itself on the store (and apparently even contributing to it), not just allowing games made with the engine on the store. Presumably you could already do that
  - gl-prod 4y ago
    Yeah, but its a good move to create good relation with the Godot community.
larsiusprime 4y ago
Godot is no threat at all to Unreal, at the high end of AAA development you really need the dialed-in horsepower of either an in-house engine, or something like Unreal, which has been increasingly consolidating market share over the last decade. Godot competes squarely with mid-market stuff: Indie, so-called "Triple-I" (high budget """indie""") and AA development, where Unity is the dominant engine. Unity has very little penetration share among the big AAA games. Godot and other open source engines squeeze Unity from the bottom, and Unreal squeezes it from the top.
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  Given you seem to know a lot about this, what's the main reason why Unreal is great at high end AAA, while Unity is not?
  - floydnoel 4y ago
    Epic has shipped first-party AAA games with Unreal. Unity has not done so. They had a planned release (of a high quality first party title) but have more recently cancelled it.
    - squeaky-clean 4y ago
      Unity also had a collaborative open source game project and canned that. And an example multiplayer FPS, but canned it because the UI, scene loading, and networking layers were all implemented using custom code and not the Unity built in equivalents. They had a 4 player multiplayer co-op game demo that they abandoned. Many of their demo projects where they promised to release source code, and they didn't deliver on that (a few of them they did deliver on but specifically under a license that allows no asset or code re-use). Studios have made some great games with Unity. But the company Unity themselves have no idea how to finish a game, or even make one using stock unity. Even if they can't use current stock unity, they never bring their custom code into the mainline engine releases... And I'm making these complaints as someone who exclusively uses Unity for their own hobby games. I really ought to give Godot a try, I just have so much personal experience using Unity (and working around their engine) that the idea of learning a new engine is daunting.
b33j0r 4y ago
Hey, more people installing the Epic Games Launcher is probably the win. Platform neutrality, or its specter, probably wins for us. It’d be much more offensive to our sensibilities if it were like the situation on iOS where Amazon is available, but “no way will we let you buy a Kindle book unless you reopen the store in a web browser.” (Because yeah… apple sells all the books I want to read, in their very cool bookstore that I haven’t seen in more than half a decade.) At any rate. Anyone serious about godot is probably compiling it or getting the official release artifacts. This seems like something Epic probably couldn’t justify turning down as window dressing for the unreal store. I’m for it anyway. Edit: more optimistically, if the GUI framework were slightly easier to use, Godot is a very attractive tools development platform. Maybe that factors in. Perhaps for end-user tooling, like map editors. Obviously Epic is motivated to keep devs inside Unreal for as many internal dev tasks as are feasible.
hiccuphippo 4y ago
I think it also sends a message to Godot users to publish their games in Epic's store.
waboremo 4y ago
Important to note: the contributions in question are a $250k megagrant. Throwaway money for Epic, but major for the small Godot team. $250k for good PR and not being viewed as anti-competitive is an exceptional deal when you consider Google is doing the same to the tune of $400 million for Firefox. Also in the short term Unreal's dominance matters, but in the long term it really doesn't. Epic has spent the absurd levels of Fortnite money trying to establish itself as additional integral layers for developers/creators so that even if Unreal stops generating any revenue it'll be fine.
mhh__ 4y ago
Kill unity
mattlondon 4y ago
Godot is the on-ramp. I.e. people use Godot to get started and "learn" gamedev. Many will stop there and not progress beyond Godot, but some will want more/latest features or want to use a "proper" engine and so move onto Unreal. The alternative starter-space is Unity, and that is more of a competitor for Unreal since there is a lot of starter materials and tutorials, and unity can make commercial quality stuff (three Unity games that come to mind are Two Point Hospital, the Outer Wilds, and Rust)
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Also: Amplitude (the Endless Series, Humankind), mihoyou (Genshin Impact), Developer Digital (Fall Guys, ironically published by Epic Games), Paradox (Cities: Skyline), Kerbal Space Program.
  - ThatPlayer 4y ago
    A lot of top indie games like Cuphead, Hollow Knight, and Neon White are all Unity too.
  - benatkin 4y ago
    That sounds promising for Godot.
  - Worldblender 4y ago
    I heard of two Nintendo published games for their Nintendo Switch platform that utilize the Unity Engine (not marketed well, but can be found in the 'Intellectual Property Notices' section for each game): * Jump Rope Challenge (summer 2020, released as a digital only game on the Nintendo eShop originally planned to be limited release, but staying up indefinitely for now) * Fire Emblem Engage (January 2023, developed by Intelligent Systems, so considered more of a 2nd party game) One more example that is 3rd party published but Nintendo owns copyright on: * Cruis'n Blast (September 2021, a port of an arcade game developed by Raw Thrills, who both developed and published this port) One more example but using the Unreal Engine: * Yoshi's Crafted World (March 2019, developed by Good Feel) Despite the examples I listed, almost none of these games are ones developed by one of Nintendo's internal studios (Jump Rope Challenge being the exception, but it was never intended to be one of their big games), but instead are developed by another studio not fully controlled by Nintendo. For their big games developed by them, they still use their own bespoke, proprietary engines, which is likely a sign that Nintendo doesn't trust outside engines like Godot, Unity, and Unreal well enough to commit to using them for such games. Outside developers making games to be published by Nintendo apparently have more freedom to use their preferred engines, including the mentioned outside ones.
gamblor956 4y ago
Godot is (becoming) a very good competitor to Unity. Godot pre-4 was not ready for prime time, but Godot 4 is almost there. I'm pleasantly surprised by the leaps-and-bounds they've made over Godot 3/3.5, and Godot 4 has surpassed Unity in a number of areas (though in some cases, they've been assisted by Unity shooting itself in the foot, such as with Unity's non-existent networking functionality and chaotic approach to render pipeline development). However, Godot 4 still has a ways to go before it's competitive with Unity in the AA space (meaning, for example, games by studios like Paradox, Amplitude, or miHoYo). Mostly, the asset pipeline still needs a great deal of work. Hopefully the Epic investment will let them reach parity (or exceed) Unity on that front.
- llanowarelves 4y ago
  Can you explain a bit more about the asset pipeline?
  - EamonnMR 4y ago
    I haven't tried it in four, but trying to get an animated model in blender into godot in 3 was a total mess. You needed to configure the animations in a very specific non-obvious way and there were a ton of gotchas.
    - llanowarelves 4y ago
      I appreciate it. I never used Godot. That makes sense. I thought you meant more like asset compression/conversion (images, audio, etc.).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
MattRix 4y ago
Tim Sweeney has been a big proponent of open platforms for over a decade. See also: the whole Apple vs Epic thing which was definitely not a good business decision at all. I think it’s possible this isn’t really about “incentives” and is just about sticking to certain principles.
- jacklbk 4y ago
  > open platforms > introduce 3rd party exclusivity on PC I don't think that's him sticking to a "certain principles", he's just doing whatever it takes to make people think Epic is the "good guy", as long as he's doing the opposite of the competitors. For example, take a look into his take about blockchain games. At first he was against NFT games [1], then after Valve banned NFT games, Gabe Newell talked about it [2], Tim suddenly was OK with it [3]? He fought with Apple because he thought he could win it, so his Fortnite could avoid 30% transaction fee. They clearly had a lot of discussion, strategies before suing Apple and thought it was a good idea, they could have won big. It's not a bad business decision if he can win, but they didn't so it looked bad. [1]: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1442519522875949061 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/144251952287594906... [2]: https://www.ign.com/articles/gabe-newell-nft-steam https://www.ign.com/articles/gabe-newell-nft-steam [3]: https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/1449146317129895938 https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/144914631712989593...
  - MattRix 4y ago
    I could be wrong but it seems likely his first tweet was about Epic integrating NFTs into their own games, and the second was about allowing them on the EGS? I don’t really see the NFT stuff as relating to open platforms anyway. Certain kinds of software (the most obvious being viruses and scams) need to be banned from platforms anyway.

danbolt 4y ago

I think Godot’s workflow and structure is closer to Unity’s, so this strikes me as Epic trying to commoditize their competition.

brundolf 4y ago
Jinx :)
ChadNauseam 4y ago
Just so you know, the original version of this quote was "commoditize their complement", not "commoditize their competition"
- colordrops 4y ago
  You all have been reading hacker news recently too I see.
  - m463 4y ago
    it all goes back to joel on software from 2002: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/06/12/strategy-letter-v/
- danbolt 4y ago
  Yeah, I had looked up the term to double-check before posting, but I felt that it didn’t quite fit as a developer picking Unreal was unlikely to also use Unity for a game.
- johnyzee 4y ago
  But that's not what they are doing. Godot/Unity are not complements to Unreal. Epic are, in fact, commoditizing their competition, which is low-end, indie-friendly games development platforms.

crazysim 4y ago

Pre-emptively stave off the anti-trust!

tpmx 4y ago

What's the risk? Godot is no threat to Unreal Engine.

brundolf 4y ago
I tend to disagree, Godot's been putting out some really impressive graphics improvements lately. But it's possible Epic agrees with you
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tpmx 4y ago
  Please do realize that according to your own web site (https://www.brandons.me/ https://www.brandons.me/) you're a javascript developer having opinions on why Godot is supposedly catching up with Unreal Engine to the point that it's becoming a threat.
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    This is a very strange way of doing a personal attack.
    - tpmx 4y ago
      I do apologize. That was wrong of me to write. Sorry!
  - zztop44 4y ago
    I am also a JavaScript developer and hold the same opinion. Who knows how many of us there are out there
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

mkl95 4y ago

Embrace, extend, and extinguish

andybak 4y ago
Doesn't really make sense in this case unless you have any specific insight?

gl-prod 4y ago

Get money from people selling games on the store?

brundolf 4y ago
This is about them distributing the engine itself on the store (and apparently even contributing to it), not just allowing games made with the engine on the store. Presumably you could already do that
- gl-prod 4y ago
  Yeah, but its a good move to create good relation with the Godot community.

larsiusprime 4y ago

Godot is no threat at all to Unreal, at the high end of AAA development you really need the dialed-in horsepower of either an in-house engine, or something like Unreal, which has been increasingly consolidating market share over the last decade. Godot competes squarely with mid-market stuff: Indie, so-called "Triple-I" (high budget """indie""") and AA development, where Unity is the dominant engine. Unity has very little penetration share among the big AAA games. Godot and other open source engines squeeze Unity from the bottom, and Unreal squeezes it from the top.

simonebrunozzi 4y ago
Given you seem to know a lot about this, what's the main reason why Unreal is great at high end AAA, while Unity is not?
- floydnoel 4y ago
  Epic has shipped first-party AAA games with Unreal. Unity has not done so. They had a planned release (of a high quality first party title) but have more recently cancelled it.
  - squeaky-clean 4y ago
    Unity also had a collaborative open source game project and canned that. And an example multiplayer FPS, but canned it because the UI, scene loading, and networking layers were all implemented using custom code and not the Unity built in equivalents. They had a 4 player multiplayer co-op game demo that they abandoned. Many of their demo projects where they promised to release source code, and they didn't deliver on that (a few of them they did deliver on but specifically under a license that allows no asset or code re-use). Studios have made some great games with Unity. But the company Unity themselves have no idea how to finish a game, or even make one using stock unity. Even if they can't use current stock unity, they never bring their custom code into the mainline engine releases... And I'm making these complaints as someone who exclusively uses Unity for their own hobby games. I really ought to give Godot a try, I just have so much personal experience using Unity (and working around their engine) that the idea of learning a new engine is daunting.

b33j0r 4y ago

Hey, more people installing the Epic Games Launcher is probably the win. Platform neutrality, or its specter, probably wins for us. It’d be much more offensive to our sensibilities if it were like the situation on iOS where Amazon is available, but “no way will we let you buy a Kindle book unless you reopen the store in a web browser.” (Because yeah… apple sells all the books I want to read, in their very cool bookstore that I haven’t seen in more than half a decade.) At any rate. Anyone serious about godot is probably compiling it or getting the official release artifacts. This seems like something Epic probably couldn’t justify turning down as window dressing for the unreal store. I’m for it anyway. Edit: more optimistically, if the GUI framework were slightly easier to use, Godot is a very attractive tools development platform. Maybe that factors in. Perhaps for end-user tooling, like map editors. Obviously Epic is motivated to keep devs inside Unreal for as many internal dev tasks as are feasible.

hiccuphippo 4y ago

I think it also sends a message to Godot users to publish their games in Epic's store.

waboremo 4y ago

Important to note: the contributions in question are a $250k megagrant. Throwaway money for Epic, but major for the small Godot team. $250k for good PR and not being viewed as anti-competitive is an exceptional deal when you consider Google is doing the same to the tune of $400 million for Firefox. Also in the short term Unreal's dominance matters, but in the long term it really doesn't. Epic has spent the absurd levels of Fortnite money trying to establish itself as additional integral layers for developers/creators so that even if Unreal stops generating any revenue it'll be fine.

mhh__ 4y ago

Kill unity

mattlondon 4y ago

Godot is the on-ramp. I.e. people use Godot to get started and "learn" gamedev. Many will stop there and not progress beyond Godot, but some will want more/latest features or want to use a "proper" engine and so move onto Unreal. The alternative starter-space is Unity, and that is more of a competitor for Unreal since there is a lot of starter materials and tutorials, and unity can make commercial quality stuff (three Unity games that come to mind are Two Point Hospital, the Outer Wilds, and Rust)

gamblor956 4y ago
Also: Amplitude (the Endless Series, Humankind), mihoyou (Genshin Impact), Developer Digital (Fall Guys, ironically published by Epic Games), Paradox (Cities: Skyline), Kerbal Space Program.
- ThatPlayer 4y ago
  A lot of top indie games like Cuphead, Hollow Knight, and Neon White are all Unity too.
- benatkin 4y ago
  That sounds promising for Godot.
- Worldblender 4y ago
  I heard of two Nintendo published games for their Nintendo Switch platform that utilize the Unity Engine (not marketed well, but can be found in the 'Intellectual Property Notices' section for each game): * Jump Rope Challenge (summer 2020, released as a digital only game on the Nintendo eShop originally planned to be limited release, but staying up indefinitely for now) * Fire Emblem Engage (January 2023, developed by Intelligent Systems, so considered more of a 2nd party game) One more example that is 3rd party published but Nintendo owns copyright on: * Cruis'n Blast (September 2021, a port of an arcade game developed by Raw Thrills, who both developed and published this port) One more example but using the Unreal Engine: * Yoshi's Crafted World (March 2019, developed by Good Feel) Despite the examples I listed, almost none of these games are ones developed by one of Nintendo's internal studios (Jump Rope Challenge being the exception, but it was never intended to be one of their big games), but instead are developed by another studio not fully controlled by Nintendo. For their big games developed by them, they still use their own bespoke, proprietary engines, which is likely a sign that Nintendo doesn't trust outside engines like Godot, Unity, and Unreal well enough to commit to using them for such games. Outside developers making games to be published by Nintendo apparently have more freedom to use their preferred engines, including the mentioned outside ones.

gamblor956 4y ago

Godot is (becoming) a very good competitor to Unity. Godot pre-4 was not ready for prime time, but Godot 4 is almost there. I'm pleasantly surprised by the leaps-and-bounds they've made over Godot 3/3.5, and Godot 4 has surpassed Unity in a number of areas (though in some cases, they've been assisted by Unity shooting itself in the foot, such as with Unity's non-existent networking functionality and chaotic approach to render pipeline development). However, Godot 4 still has a ways to go before it's competitive with Unity in the AA space (meaning, for example, games by studios like Paradox, Amplitude, or miHoYo). Mostly, the asset pipeline still needs a great deal of work. Hopefully the Epic investment will let them reach parity (or exceed) Unity on that front.

llanowarelves 4y ago
Can you explain a bit more about the asset pipeline?
- EamonnMR 4y ago
  I haven't tried it in four, but trying to get an animated model in blender into godot in 3 was a total mess. You needed to configure the animations in a very specific non-obvious way and there were a ton of gotchas.
  - llanowarelves 4y ago
    I appreciate it. I never used Godot. That makes sense. I thought you meant more like asset compression/conversion (images, audio, etc.).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

MattRix 4y ago

Tim Sweeney has been a big proponent of open platforms for over a decade. See also: the whole Apple vs Epic thing which was definitely not a good business decision at all. I think it’s possible this isn’t really about “incentives” and is just about sticking to certain principles.

jacklbk 4y ago
> open platforms > introduce 3rd party exclusivity on PC I don't think that's him sticking to a "certain principles", he's just doing whatever it takes to make people think Epic is the "good guy", as long as he's doing the opposite of the competitors. For example, take a look into his take about blockchain games. At first he was against NFT games [1], then after Valve banned NFT games, Gabe Newell talked about it [2], Tim suddenly was OK with it [3]? He fought with Apple because he thought he could win it, so his Fortnite could avoid 30% transaction fee. They clearly had a lot of discussion, strategies before suing Apple and thought it was a good idea, they could have won big. It's not a bad business decision if he can win, but they didn't so it looked bad. [1]: https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1442519522875949061 https://twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/144251952287594906... [2]: https://www.ign.com/articles/gabe-newell-nft-steam https://www.ign.com/articles/gabe-newell-nft-steam [3]: https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/1449146317129895938 https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/144914631712989593...
- MattRix 4y ago
  I could be wrong but it seems likely his first tweet was about Epic integrating NFTs into their own games, and the second was about allowing them on the EGS? I don’t really see the NFT stuff as relating to open platforms anyway. Certain kinds of software (the most obvious being viruses and scams) need to be banned from platforms anyway.