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If you're not able to choose and reject tasks (rides), then that would make Uber an employer. The reality is they can (and do), so it goes against this whole qu

If you're not able to choose and reject tasks (rides), then that would make Uber an employer. The reality is they can (and do), so it goes against this whole quote. "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)." They tell you "Hey, Joe wants a ride from A to B and we will pay out $X for that, do you accept this job?". They're not telling you "Hey, Joe wants a ride from A to B, you must take it and you must perform it within 15 minutes and you must do x y z"

californical 4y ago
Well the “must” is implied. “Do you accept this job? If you don’t take this job we won’t give you any jobs in the future” — contractor “If you don’t take this job you’re fired” - employee It’s identical. Nobody is forcing you to do it in either case, but the result is exactly the same. Whether you’re an employee or contractor makes no difference in the result, even if the wording is different.
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  So in your opinion contractors don't exist? Because what you're telling me is if I want to hire a contractor and they say no, and I decide I won't use them again in the future, then I'm all of a sudden an employer. Maybe I should tell that to half the HVAC guys in my area so they can start collecting health insurance from me
  - californical 4y ago
    Well definitely not that they don’t exist, just that maybe they don’t exist if there’s a company that acts as a middleman between the customer and the contractor. The issue is where the middleman determines all of the terms for both the contractor and the end-customer. If I as a customer can reach out directly to a bunch of contractors independently, then that’s a fair free market, and the contractors can compete for my business or not accept it at all if they don’t like the terms, without harming any of their other customer relationships. But if I as a customer can only reach out to a middleman, and that middleman decides who works for me. And the contractor also doesn’t get to pick their individual customers. Then it’s clearly not a fair free market at all. If there were a company called SanFranciscoHVAC and I reached out to them to fix my heater. They send someone out to fix it. But I don’t get to pick who comes to work on my house, and they don’t get to pick who their customers are. And they can’t refuse a job or else SFHVAC stop giving them jobs. Can you really call them contractors?
    - true_religion 4y ago
      I think it’s fair when you are working with companies like Uber when they first started. They worked with limo agencies. If you put out an offer, and a company consistently rejects it, then it’s fair to say you don’t want to waste your time with them anymore. Big or small, companies are at least knowledge and serious about analyzing their situation. Individual people can’t do that and once you start using them you have to treat them as employees, no matter how lenient you are about punishing them when they don’t follow orders.
    - pandaman 4y ago
      I don't think the theory that an intermediary contract creates an employee is well thought through. Consider a property owner who contracts a property management company that has a lease (contract) with a tenant, who complains about broken AC so the management company contracts an HVAC contractor to replace the AC, and the HVAC contractor in turn contracts a drywall guy because they needed to open walls for their install. Who is the employer of the drywall guy in your theory and why?

californical 4y ago

Well the “must” is implied. “Do you accept this job? If you don’t take this job we won’t give you any jobs in the future” — contractor “If you don’t take this job you’re fired” - employee It’s identical. Nobody is forcing you to do it in either case, but the result is exactly the same. Whether you’re an employee or contractor makes no difference in the result, even if the wording is different.

ESTheComposer 4y ago
So in your opinion contractors don't exist? Because what you're telling me is if I want to hire a contractor and they say no, and I decide I won't use them again in the future, then I'm all of a sudden an employer. Maybe I should tell that to half the HVAC guys in my area so they can start collecting health insurance from me
- californical 4y ago
  Well definitely not that they don’t exist, just that maybe they don’t exist if there’s a company that acts as a middleman between the customer and the contractor. The issue is where the middleman determines all of the terms for both the contractor and the end-customer. If I as a customer can reach out directly to a bunch of contractors independently, then that’s a fair free market, and the contractors can compete for my business or not accept it at all if they don’t like the terms, without harming any of their other customer relationships. But if I as a customer can only reach out to a middleman, and that middleman decides who works for me. And the contractor also doesn’t get to pick their individual customers. Then it’s clearly not a fair free market at all. If there were a company called SanFranciscoHVAC and I reached out to them to fix my heater. They send someone out to fix it. But I don’t get to pick who comes to work on my house, and they don’t get to pick who their customers are. And they can’t refuse a job or else SFHVAC stop giving them jobs. Can you really call them contractors?
  - true_religion 4y ago
    I think it’s fair when you are working with companies like Uber when they first started. They worked with limo agencies. If you put out an offer, and a company consistently rejects it, then it’s fair to say you don’t want to waste your time with them anymore. Big or small, companies are at least knowledge and serious about analyzing their situation. Individual people can’t do that and once you start using them you have to treat them as employees, no matter how lenient you are about punishing them when they don’t follow orders.
  - pandaman 4y ago
    I don't think the theory that an intermediary contract creates an employee is well thought through. Consider a property owner who contracts a property management company that has a lease (contract) with a tenant, who complains about broken AC so the management company contracts an HVAC contractor to replace the AC, and the HVAC contractor in turn contracts a drywall guy because they needed to open walls for their install. Who is the employer of the drywall guy in your theory and why?