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> Accounts are suspended for repeatedly not driving to dangerous areas. Do you not see why this is a policy? If you're in SF for example and drivers refuse to

> Accounts are suspended for repeatedly not driving to dangerous areas. Do you not see why this is a policy? If you're in SF for example and drivers refuse to pick up anyone from the Tenderloin, and the Tenderloin is predominately one race, it's easy to label Uber as perpetuating racism etc.

flavius29663 4y ago
It's easy for us to comment on this, it's not us that need to go in there...
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  I lived next to it and had to walk through there all the time at night, so I'm pretty aware of the risks there, as well as the demographic. Uber would 100% get labeled racist if drivers never went there.
ceejayoz 4y ago
> Do you not see why this is a policy? Yes, but the existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)."
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario I’ve been a contractor. I didn’t have the ability to randomly reject assignments as the contract was for a term of time, not job to job.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b Is this true? Or is the driver contracted from the time they sign on to the time they sign off, with nondiscretionary jobs given to them in that interval?
      - kcplate 4y ago
        The driver is only paid by the trips they decide to take within the timeframe they are logged in. They have full flexibility to log in and not take any trips…and not get paid a dime.
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  Except the drivers can reject trips. Uber can just choose not to use them for future assignments, e.g what they're doing with suspending accounts for rejecting too many rides. They're basically saying they don't want to work with unreliable contractors.
  - californical 4y ago
    You can also reject part of your job as a salaried employee, ie if you feel unsafe, but your company also may decide that it doesn’t want unreliable employees. I don’t see how that’s any argument in favor of being a contractor
    - ESTheComposer 4y ago
      If you're not able to choose and reject tasks (rides), then that would make Uber an employer. The reality is they can (and do), so it goes against this whole quote. "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)." They tell you "Hey, Joe wants a ride from A to B and we will pay out $X for that, do you accept this job?". They're not telling you "Hey, Joe wants a ride from A to B, you must take it and you must perform it within 15 minutes and you must do x y z"
      - californical 4y ago
        Well the “must” is implied. “Do you accept this job? If you don’t take this job we won’t give you any jobs in the future” — contractor “If you don’t take this job you’re fired” - employee It’s identical. Nobody is forcing you to do it in either case, but the result is exactly the same. Whether you’re an employee or contractor makes no difference in the result, even if the wording is different.
        ESTheComposer 4y ago
        So in your opinion contractors don't exist? Because what you're telling me is if I want to hire a contractor and they say no, and I decide I won't use them again in the future, then I'm all of a sudden an employer. Maybe I should tell that to half the HVAC guys in my area so they can start collecting health insurance from me
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  >You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)." I never understood what this means exactly, and I think a lot of other people are confused. It clearly doesn't mean that a contractor decide to install a sink when I asked them to install a toilet. It doesnt mean that if I pay them to do it to code, they can decide to disregard the codes.
Lammy 4y ago
This already happens all the time with delivery services for the Bayview and Hunters Point neighborhoods of SF. The wording is usually something about avoiding the area "east of Interstate 280", e.g. https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/ https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  East of 280 doesn't really denote anything about danger to me, as I don't recall those areas being any more dangerous than the rest of SF. If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to
  - Lammy 4y ago
    > If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg
    - ESTheComposer 4y ago
      I mean this proves my point? If you're trying to point out the one part that's blue on that map to the right of 280, I'll point you to the multiple pockets of blue inside their delivery zones
      - Lammy 4y ago
        Feel free to provide a different explanation :)
        ESTheComposer 4y ago
        Your explanation is trying to insinuate that it’s because they’re black, but they deliver to black neighborhoods inside SF limits, therefore you can’t just say “oh they’re racist”. If my original example is what we went with, you could because tenderloin is smack dab in SF, and it would be clearly discriminatory to pick up passengers from everywhere in SF except that one neighborhood.
650REDHAIR 4y ago
Problem is there is no oversight or recourse. I have tons of rides that originate in the TL/Mission that are unaccompanied minors or small children (toddlers or actual babies) without car seats. Lyft/Uber don’t care why I canceled. Only that I canceled and now I am penalized for following the law.

flavius29663 4y ago

It's easy for us to comment on this, it's not us that need to go in there...

ESTheComposer 4y ago
I lived next to it and had to walk through there all the time at night, so I'm pretty aware of the risks there, as well as the demographic. Uber would 100% get labeled racist if drivers never went there.

ceejayoz 4y ago

> Do you not see why this is a policy? Yes, but the existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)."

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario I’ve been a contractor. I didn’t have the ability to randomly reject assignments as the contract was for a term of time, not job to job.
- kcplate 4y ago
  a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b Is this true? Or is the driver contracted from the time they sign on to the time they sign off, with nondiscretionary jobs given to them in that interval?
    - kcplate 4y ago
      The driver is only paid by the trips they decide to take within the timeframe they are logged in. They have full flexibility to log in and not take any trips…and not get paid a dime.
ESTheComposer 4y ago
Except the drivers can reject trips. Uber can just choose not to use them for future assignments, e.g what they're doing with suspending accounts for rejecting too many rides. They're basically saying they don't want to work with unreliable contractors.
- californical 4y ago
  You can also reject part of your job as a salaried employee, ie if you feel unsafe, but your company also may decide that it doesn’t want unreliable employees. I don’t see how that’s any argument in favor of being a contractor
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    If you're not able to choose and reject tasks (rides), then that would make Uber an employer. The reality is they can (and do), so it goes against this whole quote. "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)." They tell you "Hey, Joe wants a ride from A to B and we will pay out $X for that, do you accept this job?". They're not telling you "Hey, Joe wants a ride from A to B, you must take it and you must perform it within 15 minutes and you must do x y z"
    - californical 4y ago
      Well the “must” is implied. “Do you accept this job? If you don’t take this job we won’t give you any jobs in the future” — contractor “If you don’t take this job you’re fired” - employee It’s identical. Nobody is forcing you to do it in either case, but the result is exactly the same. Whether you’re an employee or contractor makes no difference in the result, even if the wording is different.
      - ESTheComposer 4y ago
        So in your opinion contractors don't exist? Because what you're telling me is if I want to hire a contractor and they say no, and I decide I won't use them again in the future, then I'm all of a sudden an employer. Maybe I should tell that to half the HVAC guys in my area so they can start collecting health insurance from me
s1artibartfast 4y ago
>You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)." I never understood what this means exactly, and I think a lot of other people are confused. It clearly doesn't mean that a contractor decide to install a sink when I asked them to install a toilet. It doesnt mean that if I pay them to do it to code, they can decide to disregard the codes.

Lammy 4y ago

This already happens all the time with delivery services for the Bayview and Hunters Point neighborhoods of SF. The wording is usually something about avoiding the area "east of Interstate 280", e.g. https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/ https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/

ESTheComposer 4y ago
East of 280 doesn't really denote anything about danger to me, as I don't recall those areas being any more dangerous than the rest of SF. If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to
- Lammy 4y ago
  > If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    I mean this proves my point? If you're trying to point out the one part that's blue on that map to the right of 280, I'll point you to the multiple pockets of blue inside their delivery zones
    - Lammy 4y ago
      Feel free to provide a different explanation :)
      - ESTheComposer 4y ago
        Your explanation is trying to insinuate that it’s because they’re black, but they deliver to black neighborhoods inside SF limits, therefore you can’t just say “oh they’re racist”. If my original example is what we went with, you could because tenderloin is smack dab in SF, and it would be clearly discriminatory to pick up passengers from everywhere in SF except that one neighborhood.

650REDHAIR 4y ago

Problem is there is no oversight or recourse. I have tons of rides that originate in the TL/Mission that are unaccompanied minors or small children (toddlers or actual babies) without car seats. Lyft/Uber don’t care why I canceled. Only that I canceled and now I am penalized for following the law.