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The problem is we aren’t actual contractors. We are penalized for not accepting every ride. Accounts are suspended for repeatedly not driving to dangerous areas

The problem is we aren’t actual contractors. We are penalized for not accepting every ride. Accounts are suspended for repeatedly not driving to dangerous areas. There is no rate card based on time/miles so every ride is an arbitrary payout based on a black box algorithm. With Lyft you’re incentivized with streak bonuses for 3 consecutive rides. The 3rd ride is always an awful fare that will lose money and if you decline you lose the bonus for the first two rides. Ride cost has stayed the same for the passenger and payouts have plummeted for drivers. Anecdotal, but I’ve started gathering data to suggest that Uber/Lyft are capping wages to <$30/hr. When I have high tip passengers I am seemingly throttled with fewer requests and lower fares.

ESTheComposer 4y ago
> Accounts are suspended for repeatedly not driving to dangerous areas. Do you not see why this is a policy? If you're in SF for example and drivers refuse to pick up anyone from the Tenderloin, and the Tenderloin is predominately one race, it's easy to label Uber as perpetuating racism etc.
- flavius29663 4y ago
  It's easy for us to comment on this, it's not us that need to go in there...
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    I lived next to it and had to walk through there all the time at night, so I'm pretty aware of the risks there, as well as the demographic. Uber would 100% get labeled racist if drivers never went there.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  > Do you not see why this is a policy? Yes, but the existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)."
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario I’ve been a contractor. I didn’t have the ability to randomly reject assignments as the contract was for a term of time, not job to job.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b Is this true? Or is the driver contracted from the time they sign on to the time they sign off, with nondiscretionary jobs given to them in that interval?
        kcplate 4y ago
        The driver is only paid by the trips they decide to take within the timeframe they are logged in. They have full flexibility to log in and not take any trips…and not get paid a dime.
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    Except the drivers can reject trips. Uber can just choose not to use them for future assignments, e.g what they're doing with suspending accounts for rejecting too many rides. They're basically saying they don't want to work with unreliable contractors.
    - californical 4y ago
      You can also reject part of your job as a salaried employee, ie if you feel unsafe, but your company also may decide that it doesn’t want unreliable employees. I don’t see how that’s any argument in favor of being a contractor
- Lammy 4y ago
  This already happens all the time with delivery services for the Bayview and Hunters Point neighborhoods of SF. The wording is usually something about avoiding the area "east of Interstate 280", e.g. https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/ https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/
  - ESTheComposer 4y ago
    East of 280 doesn't really denote anything about danger to me, as I don't recall those areas being any more dangerous than the rest of SF. If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to
    - Lammy 4y ago
      > If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg
      - ESTheComposer 4y ago
        I mean this proves my point? If you're trying to point out the one part that's blue on that map to the right of 280, I'll point you to the multiple pockets of blue inside their delivery zones
        Lammy 4y ago
        Feel free to provide a different explanation :)
        ESTheComposer 4y ago
        Your explanation is trying to insinuate that it’s because they’re black, but they deliver to black neighborhoods inside SF limits, therefore you can’t just say “oh they’re racist”. If my original example is what we went with, you could because tenderloin is smack dab in SF, and it would be clearly discriminatory to pick up passengers from everywhere in SF except that one neighborhood.
- 650REDHAIR 4y ago
  Problem is there is no oversight or recourse. I have tons of rides that originate in the TL/Mission that are unaccompanied minors or small children (toddlers or actual babies) without car seats. Lyft/Uber don’t care why I canceled. Only that I canceled and now I am penalized for following the law.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
Would you say the situation would be better if the market were self-driving cars and chartered chauffeurs only? (Counterfactual: we have Revel [1] in New York, where I understand drivers are employees.) [1] https://gorevel.com/rideshare/drivers https://gorevel.com/rideshare/drivers
s1artibartfast 4y ago
How is that different than a legimate contractor? If I offer a electrican contractor to fix a property in a dangerous area and they refuse, I might stop calling them in the future. If contractor rates are high today, I might choose not to hire one today. Hell, I might even make sure to split my contracts between different contractors to make sure they all stay in business.
- skybrian 4y ago
  It's not losing one customer, it's losing many customers for reasons that those customers wouldn't normally be concerned about. Refusing to accept fares at some locations isn't something that would make other customers decide not to accept a ride from you. We do care about reliable service, though. That's something the ride share companies create incentives for with their games. But they are artificial games compared to a more free market situation where you can cherry-pick.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Drivers are contractors to Uber and Lyft, not the General Public. Uber is their customer.
scarface74 4y ago
Do you have any statistics about how many Uber drivers have actually been a victim of crime in these “dangerous areas”?
- 650REDHAIR 4y ago
  Rideshare companies do and don’t share it.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So you’re just assuming the neighborhood is unsafe…
    - 650REDHAIR 4y ago
      I’ve had guns pulled on me in Richmond and Oakland. I know they are unsafe.

ESTheComposer 4y ago

> Accounts are suspended for repeatedly not driving to dangerous areas. Do you not see why this is a policy? If you're in SF for example and drivers refuse to pick up anyone from the Tenderloin, and the Tenderloin is predominately one race, it's easy to label Uber as perpetuating racism etc.

flavius29663 4y ago
It's easy for us to comment on this, it's not us that need to go in there...
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  I lived next to it and had to walk through there all the time at night, so I'm pretty aware of the risks there, as well as the demographic. Uber would 100% get labeled racist if drivers never went there.
ceejayoz 4y ago
> Do you not see why this is a policy? Yes, but the existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-defined https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... "You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done)."
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > existence of policies like that are why folks say rideshare isn't a contracting scenario I’ve been a contractor. I didn’t have the ability to randomly reject assignments as the contract was for a term of time, not job to job.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > a ride share driver’s contract is for a length of time too. the time it takes to go from point a to point b Is this true? Or is the driver contracted from the time they sign on to the time they sign off, with nondiscretionary jobs given to them in that interval?
      - kcplate 4y ago
        The driver is only paid by the trips they decide to take within the timeframe they are logged in. They have full flexibility to log in and not take any trips…and not get paid a dime.
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  Except the drivers can reject trips. Uber can just choose not to use them for future assignments, e.g what they're doing with suspending accounts for rejecting too many rides. They're basically saying they don't want to work with unreliable contractors.
  - californical 4y ago
    You can also reject part of your job as a salaried employee, ie if you feel unsafe, but your company also may decide that it doesn’t want unreliable employees. I don’t see how that’s any argument in favor of being a contractor
Lammy 4y ago
This already happens all the time with delivery services for the Bayview and Hunters Point neighborhoods of SF. The wording is usually something about avoiding the area "east of Interstate 280", e.g. https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/ https://www.purplestarmd.com/delivery/
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  East of 280 doesn't really denote anything about danger to me, as I don't recall those areas being any more dangerous than the rest of SF. If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to
  - Lammy 4y ago
    > If they deliver to Tenderloin and not there I highly doubt it's for the reason you're alluding to http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg http://radicalcartography.net/bayarea_race.jpg
    - ESTheComposer 4y ago
      I mean this proves my point? If you're trying to point out the one part that's blue on that map to the right of 280, I'll point you to the multiple pockets of blue inside their delivery zones
      - Lammy 4y ago
        Feel free to provide a different explanation :)
        ESTheComposer 4y ago
        Your explanation is trying to insinuate that it’s because they’re black, but they deliver to black neighborhoods inside SF limits, therefore you can’t just say “oh they’re racist”. If my original example is what we went with, you could because tenderloin is smack dab in SF, and it would be clearly discriminatory to pick up passengers from everywhere in SF except that one neighborhood.
650REDHAIR 4y ago
Problem is there is no oversight or recourse. I have tons of rides that originate in the TL/Mission that are unaccompanied minors or small children (toddlers or actual babies) without car seats. Lyft/Uber don’t care why I canceled. Only that I canceled and now I am penalized for following the law.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

Would you say the situation would be better if the market were self-driving cars and chartered chauffeurs only? (Counterfactual: we have Revel [1] in New York, where I understand drivers are employees.) [1] https://gorevel.com/rideshare/drivers https://gorevel.com/rideshare/drivers

s1artibartfast 4y ago

How is that different than a legimate contractor? If I offer a electrican contractor to fix a property in a dangerous area and they refuse, I might stop calling them in the future. If contractor rates are high today, I might choose not to hire one today. Hell, I might even make sure to split my contracts between different contractors to make sure they all stay in business.

skybrian 4y ago
It's not losing one customer, it's losing many customers for reasons that those customers wouldn't normally be concerned about. Refusing to accept fares at some locations isn't something that would make other customers decide not to accept a ride from you. We do care about reliable service, though. That's something the ride share companies create incentives for with their games. But they are artificial games compared to a more free market situation where you can cherry-pick.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Drivers are contractors to Uber and Lyft, not the General Public. Uber is their customer.

scarface74 4y ago

Do you have any statistics about how many Uber drivers have actually been a victim of crime in these “dangerous areas”?

650REDHAIR 4y ago
Rideshare companies do and don’t share it.
- scarface74 4y ago
  So you’re just assuming the neighborhood is unsafe…
  - 650REDHAIR 4y ago
    I’ve had guns pulled on me in Richmond and Oakland. I know they are unsafe.