4 ms·

> it is soul-crushingly manipulative In what way? I’m a CA resident, and I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor ma

by csa 4y ago

> it is soul-crushingly manipulative In what way? I’m a CA resident, and I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market). I’m willing to change my stance if there is a good reason to do so.

Rimintil 4y ago
> flexible labor market By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  This is not a compelling statement or argument, it is simply an assertion based on an appeal to emotion. There are lots of reasons, and people that do not want to be considered an employee, with all the limits that come with that, mainly people who are using the apps as "side hustle" not full time employment
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. I started asking at some point, and literally everyone told me they do it full time. Sure that’s not an accurate poll, but I keep hearing this “side hustle” stuff as if it’s okay to let Uber fuck people over as faux contractors just because a few of the drivers want to make some extra scratch.
    - itake 4y ago
      That stance goes both ways: “It’s not ok for Uber to fuck people over as full time employees just because a few drivers want to treat Uber like a full time job.”
      - ok_dad 4y ago
        Yes, until we know how many people are doing it for what reasons, we both can’t say either with authority. I’m arguing that I’ve never seen a part timer, though I don’t use those services anymore. I do see a lot of appeal to that particular point by proponents of prop 22, but never seen hard numbers to trust.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      My anecdote beats your anecdote. I’ve ridden in Ubers all across the country. I know many who are doing this part time.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      I am sure your definition of "fuck people over" is vastly different than mine. Fraud, or lying would be things I consider "fucking people over". Presenting a work for hire situation where adults agree to the terms is not "fucking people over" >I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. My guess that is very regional.
- scarface74 4y ago
  My wife and I don’t have care and we use Uber everywhere - we spend seven months out of the year flying around the US. I’ve met plenty of Uber drivers who love the part time flexible nature of the job because they have other stuff going on - other businesses, grandparents who want to be able to take care of their grandkids etc. People have this thing called “agency”. If you have an issue with Uber not providing benefits like health insurance, blame it on the ass backwards American health care system where your health insurance is tied to your job. Jason Snell, a former editor in chief for Macworld who went independent a few years ago but still writes for Macworld and a few other places independently and he is a podcaster and a blogger said that the laws they were initially trying to past in California were going to make it harder for him to stay independent. I assure you that he isn’t a big business conservative by any stretch of the imagination. You heard the same from truck drivers that said they would move from California so they could stay independent. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-california-truckers-scramble-scotus-refuses-to-hear-challenge/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-ca...
  - twblalock 4y ago
    I also know freelance photographers who were impacted by AB5. AB5 is a stupid law that was clearly designed to target Uber, and even though lawmakers tried to pack in a bunch of exemptions, it impacted a ton of other people. Prop 22 was largely driven by the backlash against it.
- csa 4y ago
  > By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets? Have you participated in this part of the labor market? Or have you talked extensively with folks who have? Before voting on prop 22, I made an effort to talk to “gig workers”. A few observations: 1. Guaranteeing a minimum pay rate when working with prop 22 was something that they welcomed. Apparently some of the apps made offers that were basically noob traps — probably not out of malice by the company, rather incompetence. 2. They almost universally did not want to have scheduled hours and/or be a full-time employee. There were a number of reasons for this, but the desired state was the same — flexible schedule. 3. Some of the folks who would likely be full-time candidates were not well-educated or skilled, but they knew how to work hard. They felt like they were rewarded fairly for their labor, often times at better net pay than they could get elsewhere. 4. Uber/Lyft seemed to be the most liked. Folks who didn’t want much human interaction and/or had an older car preferred uber eats / door dash. Instacart seemed ok, but it didn’t seem to have as many fans as the others. I talked to about 20-25 people. Everyone seemed to like the current system. When asked specifically about full time work, the only support I heard for that was from a couple of people who said something like “it would be nice, as long as the schedule was flexible” — which is not how full time would likely work. I think that many of these gig apps hit product-market fit both with workers as well as customers, and that’s why they are successful in this two-sided market. EDIT: Fwiw, I also heard a lot of kvetching about AB5 from both employers and employees. That legislation may have won some political points from certain voter bases, but I don’t think I have ever heard anyone praise it (although I’m sure they exist).
hotpotamus 4y ago
https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-making-delivery-drivers-the-heroes/ https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-... There's no need to actually click that link; it's what it looks like - Doordash teaming up with Marvel to create a comic book that shows "Dashers" as super-heroes. Seems pretty condescending to me. But on a day-to-day level, these companies will use every dark pattern available to them to encourage drivers to make deliveries that are uneconomical to that driver.
- scarface74 4y ago
  If you haven’t heard, there is a severe labor shortage in the US even for “unskilled labor”. They could be working somewhere else.
thexumaker 4y ago
yep that makes sense. Every job should be contractor status to maintain a flexible labor market. Tech market would've benefited greatly xD
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  If you want to work wherever and whenever you feel like, you can be a contractor in the tech market.
  - 650REDHAIR 4y ago
    But it’s not really wherever and whenever. The only way to make above minimum wage is to do the streaks/bonuses/etc. Those are only offered during rush hour and aren’t consistently offered.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    There are a lot of relgulatory challenges, like AB5 itself, and prior court rulings (e.g. microsoft IIRC). Most companies are scared of the legal liability of hiring willing contractors. Actual contractors practically dont exist as a result. Most contractors you see in tech are actually empoyees of a 2nd firm, which takes 50% of the paycheck to shield the tech company from liability. My company is extremely picky about who they will engage with for actual contrating. They must have a demonstrated contracting work history, and get no more than 1/3 of their annual income from the contract. This is all to prevent worker misclassification lawsuit.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I know plenty of people who have left AWS Professional Services to go independent and are making much more than they made here (where I work). For reference ProServe consultants make about 10% less at each level than SDEs - most of us work from “virtual offices” that allow us to work from anywhere - this was the case pre-Covid. What do you think the difference really is between being a contractor and being an at will employee?
yonran 4y ago
> I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market) A ride share or delivery company could offer flexible hours with part-time workers too, so flexibility is not why the delivery companies created Proposition 22. As I understand it, Proposition 22 was necessary in order to: * Allow drivers to use their own car rather than forcing Uber to manage all the cars in their fleet. * Avoid paying drivers when they are parked waiting for an order, which allows drivers to have multiple apps open looking for orders.

by csa 4y ago

Rimintil 4y ago

> flexible labor market By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets?

phpisthebest 4y ago
This is not a compelling statement or argument, it is simply an assertion based on an appeal to emotion. There are lots of reasons, and people that do not want to be considered an employee, with all the limits that come with that, mainly people who are using the apps as "side hustle" not full time employment
- ok_dad 4y ago
  I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. I started asking at some point, and literally everyone told me they do it full time. Sure that’s not an accurate poll, but I keep hearing this “side hustle” stuff as if it’s okay to let Uber fuck people over as faux contractors just because a few of the drivers want to make some extra scratch.
  - itake 4y ago
    That stance goes both ways: “It’s not ok for Uber to fuck people over as full time employees just because a few drivers want to treat Uber like a full time job.”
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      Yes, until we know how many people are doing it for what reasons, we both can’t say either with authority. I’m arguing that I’ve never seen a part timer, though I don’t use those services anymore. I do see a lot of appeal to that particular point by proponents of prop 22, but never seen hard numbers to trust.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    My anecdote beats your anecdote. I’ve ridden in Ubers all across the country. I know many who are doing this part time.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    I am sure your definition of "fuck people over" is vastly different than mine. Fraud, or lying would be things I consider "fucking people over". Presenting a work for hire situation where adults agree to the terms is not "fucking people over" >I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. My guess that is very regional.
scarface74 4y ago
My wife and I don’t have care and we use Uber everywhere - we spend seven months out of the year flying around the US. I’ve met plenty of Uber drivers who love the part time flexible nature of the job because they have other stuff going on - other businesses, grandparents who want to be able to take care of their grandkids etc. People have this thing called “agency”. If you have an issue with Uber not providing benefits like health insurance, blame it on the ass backwards American health care system where your health insurance is tied to your job. Jason Snell, a former editor in chief for Macworld who went independent a few years ago but still writes for Macworld and a few other places independently and he is a podcaster and a blogger said that the laws they were initially trying to past in California were going to make it harder for him to stay independent. I assure you that he isn’t a big business conservative by any stretch of the imagination. You heard the same from truck drivers that said they would move from California so they could stay independent. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-california-truckers-scramble-scotus-refuses-to-hear-challenge/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-ca...
- twblalock 4y ago
  I also know freelance photographers who were impacted by AB5. AB5 is a stupid law that was clearly designed to target Uber, and even though lawmakers tried to pack in a bunch of exemptions, it impacted a ton of other people. Prop 22 was largely driven by the backlash against it.
csa 4y ago
> By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets? Have you participated in this part of the labor market? Or have you talked extensively with folks who have? Before voting on prop 22, I made an effort to talk to “gig workers”. A few observations: 1. Guaranteeing a minimum pay rate when working with prop 22 was something that they welcomed. Apparently some of the apps made offers that were basically noob traps — probably not out of malice by the company, rather incompetence. 2. They almost universally did not want to have scheduled hours and/or be a full-time employee. There were a number of reasons for this, but the desired state was the same — flexible schedule. 3. Some of the folks who would likely be full-time candidates were not well-educated or skilled, but they knew how to work hard. They felt like they were rewarded fairly for their labor, often times at better net pay than they could get elsewhere. 4. Uber/Lyft seemed to be the most liked. Folks who didn’t want much human interaction and/or had an older car preferred uber eats / door dash. Instacart seemed ok, but it didn’t seem to have as many fans as the others. I talked to about 20-25 people. Everyone seemed to like the current system. When asked specifically about full time work, the only support I heard for that was from a couple of people who said something like “it would be nice, as long as the schedule was flexible” — which is not how full time would likely work. I think that many of these gig apps hit product-market fit both with workers as well as customers, and that’s why they are successful in this two-sided market. EDIT: Fwiw, I also heard a lot of kvetching about AB5 from both employers and employees. That legislation may have won some political points from certain voter bases, but I don’t think I have ever heard anyone praise it (although I’m sure they exist).

hotpotamus 4y ago

https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-making-delivery-drivers-the-heroes/ https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-... There's no need to actually click that link; it's what it looks like - Doordash teaming up with Marvel to create a comic book that shows "Dashers" as super-heroes. Seems pretty condescending to me. But on a day-to-day level, these companies will use every dark pattern available to them to encourage drivers to make deliveries that are uneconomical to that driver.

scarface74 4y ago
If you haven’t heard, there is a severe labor shortage in the US even for “unskilled labor”. They could be working somewhere else.

thexumaker 4y ago

yep that makes sense. Every job should be contractor status to maintain a flexible labor market. Tech market would've benefited greatly xD

lotsofpulp 4y ago
If you want to work wherever and whenever you feel like, you can be a contractor in the tech market.
- 650REDHAIR 4y ago
  But it’s not really wherever and whenever. The only way to make above minimum wage is to do the streaks/bonuses/etc. Those are only offered during rush hour and aren’t consistently offered.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  There are a lot of relgulatory challenges, like AB5 itself, and prior court rulings (e.g. microsoft IIRC). Most companies are scared of the legal liability of hiring willing contractors. Actual contractors practically dont exist as a result. Most contractors you see in tech are actually empoyees of a 2nd firm, which takes 50% of the paycheck to shield the tech company from liability. My company is extremely picky about who they will engage with for actual contrating. They must have a demonstrated contracting work history, and get no more than 1/3 of their annual income from the contract. This is all to prevent worker misclassification lawsuit.
scarface74 4y ago
I know plenty of people who have left AWS Professional Services to go independent and are making much more than they made here (where I work). For reference ProServe consultants make about 10% less at each level than SDEs - most of us work from “virtual offices” that allow us to work from anywhere - this was the case pre-Covid. What do you think the difference really is between being a contractor and being an at will employee?

yonran 4y ago

> I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market) A ride share or delivery company could offer flexible hours with part-time workers too, so flexibility is not why the delivery companies created Proposition 22. As I understand it, Proposition 22 was necessary in order to: * Allow drivers to use their own car rather than forcing Uber to manage all the cars in their fleet. * Avoid paying drivers when they are parked waiting for an order, which allows drivers to have multiple apps open looking for orders.