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I’m doing rideshare while I figure out what I want to do next and it is soul-crushingly manipulative. Lyft, Uber, DoorDash, etc are all horrible, terrible, awf

I’m doing rideshare while I figure out what I want to do next and it is soul-crushingly manipulative. Lyft, Uber, DoorDash, etc are all horrible, terrible, awful companies and I cannot wait for them all to fail.

csa 4y ago
> it is soul-crushingly manipulative In what way? I’m a CA resident, and I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market). I’m willing to change my stance if there is a good reason to do so.
- Rimintil 4y ago
  > flexible labor market By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets?
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    This is not a compelling statement or argument, it is simply an assertion based on an appeal to emotion. There are lots of reasons, and people that do not want to be considered an employee, with all the limits that come with that, mainly people who are using the apps as "side hustle" not full time employment
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. I started asking at some point, and literally everyone told me they do it full time. Sure that’s not an accurate poll, but I keep hearing this “side hustle” stuff as if it’s okay to let Uber fuck people over as faux contractors just because a few of the drivers want to make some extra scratch.
      - itake 4y ago
        That stance goes both ways: “It’s not ok for Uber to fuck people over as full time employees just because a few drivers want to treat Uber like a full time job.”
        ok_dad 4y ago
        Yes, until we know how many people are doing it for what reasons, we both can’t say either with authority. I’m arguing that I’ve never seen a part timer, though I don’t use those services anymore. I do see a lot of appeal to that particular point by proponents of prop 22, but never seen hard numbers to trust.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        My anecdote beats your anecdote. I’ve ridden in Ubers all across the country. I know many who are doing this part time.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        I am sure your definition of "fuck people over" is vastly different than mine. Fraud, or lying would be things I consider "fucking people over". Presenting a work for hire situation where adults agree to the terms is not "fucking people over" >I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. My guess that is very regional.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    My wife and I don’t have care and we use Uber everywhere - we spend seven months out of the year flying around the US. I’ve met plenty of Uber drivers who love the part time flexible nature of the job because they have other stuff going on - other businesses, grandparents who want to be able to take care of their grandkids etc. People have this thing called “agency”. If you have an issue with Uber not providing benefits like health insurance, blame it on the ass backwards American health care system where your health insurance is tied to your job. Jason Snell, a former editor in chief for Macworld who went independent a few years ago but still writes for Macworld and a few other places independently and he is a podcaster and a blogger said that the laws they were initially trying to past in California were going to make it harder for him to stay independent. I assure you that he isn’t a big business conservative by any stretch of the imagination. You heard the same from truck drivers that said they would move from California so they could stay independent. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-california-truckers-scramble-scotus-refuses-to-hear-challenge/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-ca...
    - twblalock 4y ago
      I also know freelance photographers who were impacted by AB5. AB5 is a stupid law that was clearly designed to target Uber, and even though lawmakers tried to pack in a bunch of exemptions, it impacted a ton of other people. Prop 22 was largely driven by the backlash against it.
  - csa 4y ago
    > By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets? Have you participated in this part of the labor market? Or have you talked extensively with folks who have? Before voting on prop 22, I made an effort to talk to “gig workers”. A few observations: 1. Guaranteeing a minimum pay rate when working with prop 22 was something that they welcomed. Apparently some of the apps made offers that were basically noob traps — probably not out of malice by the company, rather incompetence. 2. They almost universally did not want to have scheduled hours and/or be a full-time employee. There were a number of reasons for this, but the desired state was the same — flexible schedule. 3. Some of the folks who would likely be full-time candidates were not well-educated or skilled, but they knew how to work hard. They felt like they were rewarded fairly for their labor, often times at better net pay than they could get elsewhere. 4. Uber/Lyft seemed to be the most liked. Folks who didn’t want much human interaction and/or had an older car preferred uber eats / door dash. Instacart seemed ok, but it didn’t seem to have as many fans as the others. I talked to about 20-25 people. Everyone seemed to like the current system. When asked specifically about full time work, the only support I heard for that was from a couple of people who said something like “it would be nice, as long as the schedule was flexible” — which is not how full time would likely work. I think that many of these gig apps hit product-market fit both with workers as well as customers, and that’s why they are successful in this two-sided market. EDIT: Fwiw, I also heard a lot of kvetching about AB5 from both employers and employees. That legislation may have won some political points from certain voter bases, but I don’t think I have ever heard anyone praise it (although I’m sure they exist).
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-making-delivery-drivers-the-heroes/ https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-... There's no need to actually click that link; it's what it looks like - Doordash teaming up with Marvel to create a comic book that shows "Dashers" as super-heroes. Seems pretty condescending to me. But on a day-to-day level, these companies will use every dark pattern available to them to encourage drivers to make deliveries that are uneconomical to that driver.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    If you haven’t heard, there is a severe labor shortage in the US even for “unskilled labor”. They could be working somewhere else.
- thexumaker 4y ago
  yep that makes sense. Every job should be contractor status to maintain a flexible labor market. Tech market would've benefited greatly xD
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    If you want to work wherever and whenever you feel like, you can be a contractor in the tech market.
    - 650REDHAIR 4y ago
      But it’s not really wherever and whenever. The only way to make above minimum wage is to do the streaks/bonuses/etc. Those are only offered during rush hour and aren’t consistently offered.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      There are a lot of relgulatory challenges, like AB5 itself, and prior court rulings (e.g. microsoft IIRC). Most companies are scared of the legal liability of hiring willing contractors. Actual contractors practically dont exist as a result. Most contractors you see in tech are actually empoyees of a 2nd firm, which takes 50% of the paycheck to shield the tech company from liability. My company is extremely picky about who they will engage with for actual contrating. They must have a demonstrated contracting work history, and get no more than 1/3 of their annual income from the contract. This is all to prevent worker misclassification lawsuit.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I know plenty of people who have left AWS Professional Services to go independent and are making much more than they made here (where I work). For reference ProServe consultants make about 10% less at each level than SDEs - most of us work from “virtual offices” that allow us to work from anywhere - this was the case pre-Covid. What do you think the difference really is between being a contractor and being an at will employee?
- yonran 4y ago
  > I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market) A ride share or delivery company could offer flexible hours with part-time workers too, so flexibility is not why the delivery companies created Proposition 22. As I understand it, Proposition 22 was necessary in order to: * Allow drivers to use their own car rather than forcing Uber to manage all the cars in their fleet. * Avoid paying drivers when they are parked waiting for an order, which allows drivers to have multiple apps open looking for orders.
MattGaiser 4y ago
How are they manipulative? I know the pay is probably low, but are there lots of day to day tricks as well?
- 650REDHAIR 4y ago
  Lyft has streak zones where you get $X extra for 3 rides. Say $12 for 3 rides in an hour in a given zone. The first one might take you slightly out of zone. You’ll get back to the zone and maybe you’ll wait 30m for a ride or maybe your 2nd ride will take you an hour away to the middle of nowhere and pay under $1/mile and $.30/minute. The market at that destination is dead so you’ll travel back without a paying customer. If you decline that ride you ruin the streak and forfeit any bonuses. I’ve had $21 streaks and the 3rd request is a 4hr drive away. You could take 2 truly awful rides that come out to pennies because of gas costs banking on the bonus and then the 3rd ride never happens. I’ve waited an hour to finish a streak only to give up. Meanwhile Uber is blowing up so it would seem the market isn’t dead at that time. There’s also anecdotal evidence to suggest new drivers get preferential rates to encourage the jump to full time only for it to dry up after the honeymoon phase and/or they’ve rented a fancier car through the rideshare app because drivers are bombarded with in-app ads to increase their income by renting a Tesla for example.
twblalock 4y ago
Would you be better off if the rideshare jobs didn't exist? Is a bad gig job worse for you than no job at all? (If it is, then why are you doing it?) These are serious questions, because rideshare jobs would not exist if you were compensated as a full-time employee with benefits. Uber and Lyft have never made a profit as it is, and increasing their costs would make the business simply impossible to sustain.
- flangola7 4y ago
  If the resources used to build Uber were put to better different use, then indeed it would certainly be better for the average worker. Even mediocre uses would be better than uses that specifically optimize exploitation and wealth extraction.
  - twblalock 4y ago
    This is hand-wavy and assumes that investment in business is zero-sum. It's not, because our economy works on wealth creation not wealth extraction. The existence of Uber is not preventing anyone from investing in other things.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      I don't see how the post assumes that investment is zero-sum; to me it reads, rather, as assuming that capital isn't unlimited, which isn't the same thing. > It's not, because our economy works on wealth creation not wealth extraction. This can be true of the economy overall, but false of particular actors or actions within the economy, as in the case of rent-seeking, for example.
- robotnikman 4y ago
  As much as I loathe the current system, it is also true that treating drivers as full time employees is unsustainable for a company not even making a profit. Probably better for such opportunities in a gig economy to exist than not exist, but with how unsustainable the business is in general I can see it all collapsing at some point either way. How long can a company go without ever generating a profit?
fdasjvaklj 4y ago
> Lyft, Uber, DoorDash, etc are all horrible, terrible, awful companies and I cannot wait for them all to fail. If they fail you'd no longer be able to do rideshare, right? Why are you still doing it now?
pokstad 4y ago
But they are the only opportunity you have left. If California makes drive sharing less profitable, that opportunity could disappear.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  I love how those Uber stockholders are all riding the drivers like donkeys while holding this particular carrot just out of reach of them. Maybe if the drivers could stand up they could see clearly that beyond the horizon is nothing but investor profits and self driving cars.
whalesalad 4y ago
Soul-crushingly manipulative? Please elaborate. Have you been manipulated? Assuming you are in the US, you are free to do whatever you please. You don't need to work for these places. You can work literally anywhere: Starbucks, the local library, or heck you can even choose to not work at all.
908B64B197 4y ago
It's interesting how it's now fashionable to bash on Uber and Lyft. Seems everyone conveniently forgot about the medallion system Uber and Lyft disrupted. Pre-Uber/Lyft, either the driver rented the car to a middleman who rented the medallion from a rich owner, or said owner was selling and financing (most banks won't touch these medallions!) a medallion at a ridiculous interest rate to a driver that planned to use it as his retirement savings (an extremely volatile asset and not very liquid). Sure back then the dispatch only took a 15-20% cut, but medallion payments took at least a 50% cut on every ride. That money didn't get re-invested or re-distributed as incentives to drivers, no. It went straight to the pockets of the local rent-seeker. The more I spoke to cab drivers the more it seemed their industry was a pyramid scheme aimed at helping established rent-seeker take advantage of often poor new immigrants. Uber/Lyft brought a breeze of fresh air: Someone could simply buy a car, calculate the depreciation and it's value on the market (since unlike medallions cars are relatively liquid assets!) do rideshare and calculate their profits or loss. They can get out of the game at anytime, and they know exactly how much they are going to get for the car they have should they sell it. And I'm not even touching the usual pain points and often discriminatory practices of medallion drivers (refusing card payments, refusing rides to non-white passengers and to non-white neighborhoods...).
- ESTheComposer 4y ago
  I'm guessing a lot of people doing uber driving now either never A. Attempted to be a taxi driver so never saw that system B. Grew up in the Uber generation and has only seen the improved taxi system that happened as a result of ride share C. Never experienced the refusing cards and non white stuff. It really is looking at it through rose colored glasses. I remember when Uber first emerged on the scene everyone that I talked to thought it was a God send because they were so tired of taxis being garbage and scammy
  - 650REDHAIR 4y ago
    Uber treated drivers better at that time. Like I mentioned previously fares are pretty consistent over time, but driver pay is plummeting. Same rides 8 months ago are paying 30-50% lower to the driver in my experience.

csa 4y ago

> it is soul-crushingly manipulative In what way? I’m a CA resident, and I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market). I’m willing to change my stance if there is a good reason to do so.

Rimintil 4y ago
> flexible labor market By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  This is not a compelling statement or argument, it is simply an assertion based on an appeal to emotion. There are lots of reasons, and people that do not want to be considered an employee, with all the limits that come with that, mainly people who are using the apps as "side hustle" not full time employment
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. I started asking at some point, and literally everyone told me they do it full time. Sure that’s not an accurate poll, but I keep hearing this “side hustle” stuff as if it’s okay to let Uber fuck people over as faux contractors just because a few of the drivers want to make some extra scratch.
    - itake 4y ago
      That stance goes both ways: “It’s not ok for Uber to fuck people over as full time employees just because a few drivers want to treat Uber like a full time job.”
      - ok_dad 4y ago
        Yes, until we know how many people are doing it for what reasons, we both can’t say either with authority. I’m arguing that I’ve never seen a part timer, though I don’t use those services anymore. I do see a lot of appeal to that particular point by proponents of prop 22, but never seen hard numbers to trust.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      My anecdote beats your anecdote. I’ve ridden in Ubers all across the country. I know many who are doing this part time.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      I am sure your definition of "fuck people over" is vastly different than mine. Fraud, or lying would be things I consider "fucking people over". Presenting a work for hire situation where adults agree to the terms is not "fucking people over" >I’ve never gotten into an Uber or Lyft that wasn’t clearly a full time hustle. My guess that is very regional.
- scarface74 4y ago
  My wife and I don’t have care and we use Uber everywhere - we spend seven months out of the year flying around the US. I’ve met plenty of Uber drivers who love the part time flexible nature of the job because they have other stuff going on - other businesses, grandparents who want to be able to take care of their grandkids etc. People have this thing called “agency”. If you have an issue with Uber not providing benefits like health insurance, blame it on the ass backwards American health care system where your health insurance is tied to your job. Jason Snell, a former editor in chief for Macworld who went independent a few years ago but still writes for Macworld and a few other places independently and he is a podcaster and a blogger said that the laws they were initially trying to past in California were going to make it harder for him to stay independent. I assure you that he isn’t a big business conservative by any stretch of the imagination. You heard the same from truck drivers that said they would move from California so they could stay independent. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-california-truckers-scramble-scotus-refuses-to-hear-challenge/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ab5-independent-ca...
  - twblalock 4y ago
    I also know freelance photographers who were impacted by AB5. AB5 is a stupid law that was clearly designed to target Uber, and even though lawmakers tried to pack in a bunch of exemptions, it impacted a ton of other people. Prop 22 was largely driven by the backlash against it.
- csa 4y ago
  > By and large, this only benefits the employer. Why would you support anti-human markets? Have you participated in this part of the labor market? Or have you talked extensively with folks who have? Before voting on prop 22, I made an effort to talk to “gig workers”. A few observations: 1. Guaranteeing a minimum pay rate when working with prop 22 was something that they welcomed. Apparently some of the apps made offers that were basically noob traps — probably not out of malice by the company, rather incompetence. 2. They almost universally did not want to have scheduled hours and/or be a full-time employee. There were a number of reasons for this, but the desired state was the same — flexible schedule. 3. Some of the folks who would likely be full-time candidates were not well-educated or skilled, but they knew how to work hard. They felt like they were rewarded fairly for their labor, often times at better net pay than they could get elsewhere. 4. Uber/Lyft seemed to be the most liked. Folks who didn’t want much human interaction and/or had an older car preferred uber eats / door dash. Instacart seemed ok, but it didn’t seem to have as many fans as the others. I talked to about 20-25 people. Everyone seemed to like the current system. When asked specifically about full time work, the only support I heard for that was from a couple of people who said something like “it would be nice, as long as the schedule was flexible” — which is not how full time would likely work. I think that many of these gig apps hit product-market fit both with workers as well as customers, and that’s why they are successful in this two-sided market. EDIT: Fwiw, I also heard a lot of kvetching about AB5 from both employers and employees. That legislation may have won some political points from certain voter bases, but I don’t think I have ever heard anyone praise it (although I’m sure they exist).
hotpotamus 4y ago
https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-making-delivery-drivers-the-heroes/ https://thepopinsider.com/news/nycc-marvel-and-doordash-are-... There's no need to actually click that link; it's what it looks like - Doordash teaming up with Marvel to create a comic book that shows "Dashers" as super-heroes. Seems pretty condescending to me. But on a day-to-day level, these companies will use every dark pattern available to them to encourage drivers to make deliveries that are uneconomical to that driver.
- scarface74 4y ago
  If you haven’t heard, there is a severe labor shortage in the US even for “unskilled labor”. They could be working somewhere else.
thexumaker 4y ago
yep that makes sense. Every job should be contractor status to maintain a flexible labor market. Tech market would've benefited greatly xD
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  If you want to work wherever and whenever you feel like, you can be a contractor in the tech market.
  - 650REDHAIR 4y ago
    But it’s not really wherever and whenever. The only way to make above minimum wage is to do the streaks/bonuses/etc. Those are only offered during rush hour and aren’t consistently offered.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    There are a lot of relgulatory challenges, like AB5 itself, and prior court rulings (e.g. microsoft IIRC). Most companies are scared of the legal liability of hiring willing contractors. Actual contractors practically dont exist as a result. Most contractors you see in tech are actually empoyees of a 2nd firm, which takes 50% of the paycheck to shield the tech company from liability. My company is extremely picky about who they will engage with for actual contrating. They must have a demonstrated contracting work history, and get no more than 1/3 of their annual income from the contract. This is all to prevent worker misclassification lawsuit.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I know plenty of people who have left AWS Professional Services to go independent and are making much more than they made here (where I work). For reference ProServe consultants make about 10% less at each level than SDEs - most of us work from “virtual offices” that allow us to work from anywhere - this was the case pre-Covid. What do you think the difference really is between being a contractor and being an at will employee?
yonran 4y ago
> I support the contractor status (mainly due to general support of a flexible labor market) A ride share or delivery company could offer flexible hours with part-time workers too, so flexibility is not why the delivery companies created Proposition 22. As I understand it, Proposition 22 was necessary in order to: * Allow drivers to use their own car rather than forcing Uber to manage all the cars in their fleet. * Avoid paying drivers when they are parked waiting for an order, which allows drivers to have multiple apps open looking for orders.

MattGaiser 4y ago

How are they manipulative? I know the pay is probably low, but are there lots of day to day tricks as well?

650REDHAIR 4y ago
Lyft has streak zones where you get $X extra for 3 rides. Say $12 for 3 rides in an hour in a given zone. The first one might take you slightly out of zone. You’ll get back to the zone and maybe you’ll wait 30m for a ride or maybe your 2nd ride will take you an hour away to the middle of nowhere and pay under $1/mile and $.30/minute. The market at that destination is dead so you’ll travel back without a paying customer. If you decline that ride you ruin the streak and forfeit any bonuses. I’ve had $21 streaks and the 3rd request is a 4hr drive away. You could take 2 truly awful rides that come out to pennies because of gas costs banking on the bonus and then the 3rd ride never happens. I’ve waited an hour to finish a streak only to give up. Meanwhile Uber is blowing up so it would seem the market isn’t dead at that time. There’s also anecdotal evidence to suggest new drivers get preferential rates to encourage the jump to full time only for it to dry up after the honeymoon phase and/or they’ve rented a fancier car through the rideshare app because drivers are bombarded with in-app ads to increase their income by renting a Tesla for example.

twblalock 4y ago

Would you be better off if the rideshare jobs didn't exist? Is a bad gig job worse for you than no job at all? (If it is, then why are you doing it?) These are serious questions, because rideshare jobs would not exist if you were compensated as a full-time employee with benefits. Uber and Lyft have never made a profit as it is, and increasing their costs would make the business simply impossible to sustain.

flangola7 4y ago
If the resources used to build Uber were put to better different use, then indeed it would certainly be better for the average worker. Even mediocre uses would be better than uses that specifically optimize exploitation and wealth extraction.
- twblalock 4y ago
  This is hand-wavy and assumes that investment in business is zero-sum. It's not, because our economy works on wealth creation not wealth extraction. The existence of Uber is not preventing anyone from investing in other things.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    I don't see how the post assumes that investment is zero-sum; to me it reads, rather, as assuming that capital isn't unlimited, which isn't the same thing. > It's not, because our economy works on wealth creation not wealth extraction. This can be true of the economy overall, but false of particular actors or actions within the economy, as in the case of rent-seeking, for example.
robotnikman 4y ago
As much as I loathe the current system, it is also true that treating drivers as full time employees is unsustainable for a company not even making a profit. Probably better for such opportunities in a gig economy to exist than not exist, but with how unsustainable the business is in general I can see it all collapsing at some point either way. How long can a company go without ever generating a profit?

fdasjvaklj 4y ago

> Lyft, Uber, DoorDash, etc are all horrible, terrible, awful companies and I cannot wait for them all to fail. If they fail you'd no longer be able to do rideshare, right? Why are you still doing it now?

pokstad 4y ago

But they are the only opportunity you have left. If California makes drive sharing less profitable, that opportunity could disappear.

ok_dad 4y ago
I love how those Uber stockholders are all riding the drivers like donkeys while holding this particular carrot just out of reach of them. Maybe if the drivers could stand up they could see clearly that beyond the horizon is nothing but investor profits and self driving cars.

whalesalad 4y ago

Soul-crushingly manipulative? Please elaborate. Have you been manipulated? Assuming you are in the US, you are free to do whatever you please. You don't need to work for these places. You can work literally anywhere: Starbucks, the local library, or heck you can even choose to not work at all.

908B64B197 4y ago

It's interesting how it's now fashionable to bash on Uber and Lyft. Seems everyone conveniently forgot about the medallion system Uber and Lyft disrupted. Pre-Uber/Lyft, either the driver rented the car to a middleman who rented the medallion from a rich owner, or said owner was selling and financing (most banks won't touch these medallions!) a medallion at a ridiculous interest rate to a driver that planned to use it as his retirement savings (an extremely volatile asset and not very liquid). Sure back then the dispatch only took a 15-20% cut, but medallion payments took at least a 50% cut on every ride. That money didn't get re-invested or re-distributed as incentives to drivers, no. It went straight to the pockets of the local rent-seeker. The more I spoke to cab drivers the more it seemed their industry was a pyramid scheme aimed at helping established rent-seeker take advantage of often poor new immigrants. Uber/Lyft brought a breeze of fresh air: Someone could simply buy a car, calculate the depreciation and it's value on the market (since unlike medallions cars are relatively liquid assets!) do rideshare and calculate their profits or loss. They can get out of the game at anytime, and they know exactly how much they are going to get for the car they have should they sell it. And I'm not even touching the usual pain points and often discriminatory practices of medallion drivers (refusing card payments, refusing rides to non-white passengers and to non-white neighborhoods...).

ESTheComposer 4y ago
I'm guessing a lot of people doing uber driving now either never A. Attempted to be a taxi driver so never saw that system B. Grew up in the Uber generation and has only seen the improved taxi system that happened as a result of ride share C. Never experienced the refusing cards and non white stuff. It really is looking at it through rose colored glasses. I remember when Uber first emerged on the scene everyone that I talked to thought it was a God send because they were so tired of taxis being garbage and scammy
- 650REDHAIR 4y ago
  Uber treated drivers better at that time. Like I mentioned previously fares are pretty consistent over time, but driver pay is plummeting. Same rides 8 months ago are paying 30-50% lower to the driver in my experience.