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"For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, p

"For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise." - Socrates, from Plato's dialogue Phaedrus Yes, this is going to make us smarter. Just like the personal computer was the 20th century "bicycle for the mind", large language models will be the 21st century "copilot for the mind". The only scary part it it feels like we're handing over some of the reins.

cercatrova 4y ago
The full story for those curious, from Plato's dialogue Phaedrus 14, 274c-275b: Socrates: I heard, then, that at Naucratis, in Egypt, was one of the ancient gods of that country, the one whose sacred bird is called the ibis, and the name of the god himself was Theuth. He it was who invented numbers and arithmetic and geometry and astronomy, also draughts and dice, and, most important of all, letters. Now the king of all Egypt at that time was the god Thamus, who lived in the great city of the upper region, which the Greeks call the Egyptian Thebes, and they call the god himself Ammon. To him came Theuth to show his inventions, saying that they ought to be imparted to the other Egyptians. But Thamus asked what use there was in each, and as Theuth enumerated their uses, expressed praise or blame, according as he approved or disapproved. "The story goes that Thamus said many things to Theuth in praise or blame of the various arts, which it would take too long to repeat; but when they came to the letters, "This invention, O king," said Theuth, "will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered." But Thamus replied, "Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. "For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise."
booleandilemma 4y ago
It's enough for me to not use it, honestly. I can tolerate no longer remembering everyone's phone numbers since I started using a cell phone, but I'm not eager to give up thinking. I don't want to get into the habit of reaching for ChatGPT when I want to write someone an email or post a comment on HN.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
Plato was largely right though, when looking at the individual alone. It is still a problem, thinking you understand something because you could look it up. It permits hypothetical access to facts but not the synthesis of knowledge from those facts. Anyone reading this could look up the latin terms "manus" and "facere", but unless they do, they probably won't spontaneously understand the etymology of "manufacture" as I mention it. What he didn't factor in was the effect on information logistics. This turned out to outweigh the drawbacks of more false wisdom.
- pleasantpeasant 4y ago
  Plato was an elitist. He didn't want or believe that the lower-class Athenians should have access to education. He very much believed in an Oligarchy where the State would be ruled by a select few.
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    Oh sure, but he still made an important point.
  - henriquemaia 4y ago
    Such a big statement about someone who we know so little about. But regardless of that, judging from the available works alone that is simply not true. Cases in point: Meno, the slave boy moment; the whole education project from the Republic.

cercatrova 4y ago

The full story for those curious, from Plato's dialogue Phaedrus 14, 274c-275b: Socrates: I heard, then, that at Naucratis, in Egypt, was one of the ancient gods of that country, the one whose sacred bird is called the ibis, and the name of the god himself was Theuth. He it was who invented numbers and arithmetic and geometry and astronomy, also draughts and dice, and, most important of all, letters. Now the king of all Egypt at that time was the god Thamus, who lived in the great city of the upper region, which the Greeks call the Egyptian Thebes, and they call the god himself Ammon. To him came Theuth to show his inventions, saying that they ought to be imparted to the other Egyptians. But Thamus asked what use there was in each, and as Theuth enumerated their uses, expressed praise or blame, according as he approved or disapproved. "The story goes that Thamus said many things to Theuth in praise or blame of the various arts, which it would take too long to repeat; but when they came to the letters, "This invention, O king," said Theuth, "will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered." But Thamus replied, "Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. "For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise."

booleandilemma 4y ago

It's enough for me to not use it, honestly. I can tolerate no longer remembering everyone's phone numbers since I started using a cell phone, but I'm not eager to give up thinking. I don't want to get into the habit of reaching for ChatGPT when I want to write someone an email or post a comment on HN.

marginalia_nu 4y ago

Plato was largely right though, when looking at the individual alone. It is still a problem, thinking you understand something because you could look it up. It permits hypothetical access to facts but not the synthesis of knowledge from those facts. Anyone reading this could look up the latin terms "manus" and "facere", but unless they do, they probably won't spontaneously understand the etymology of "manufacture" as I mention it. What he didn't factor in was the effect on information logistics. This turned out to outweigh the drawbacks of more false wisdom.

pleasantpeasant 4y ago
Plato was an elitist. He didn't want or believe that the lower-class Athenians should have access to education. He very much believed in an Oligarchy where the State would be ruled by a select few.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Oh sure, but he still made an important point.
- henriquemaia 4y ago
  Such a big statement about someone who we know so little about. But regardless of that, judging from the available works alone that is simply not true. Cases in point: Meno, the slave boy moment; the whole education project from the Republic.