6 ms·

Maybe you don’t need to talk to someone

44 points by alexzeitler 4y ago

notch898a 4y ago
I would never speak to a therapist unless all the laws regarding mandatory reporting, red flags, FAA and firearms licensing record searches, and involuntary committal are repealed. Until then they are a huge blinking hazard that the slightest misinterpreted phrase will result in serious legal hassles.
- zb1plus 4y ago
  Probably better to talk to a therapist overseas virtually to avoid silly government rules. It also lets you keep a good therapist even when you move to a different territory or change insurance (as an American)
- function_seven 4y ago
  Likewise. And for the same reason, you should probably lie to your doctor about any drug use, past or present. Which is a terrible policy to have, as you may be given treatments or prescriptions that interact negatively. But at least you can independently research those possible effects.
  - Scubabear68 4y ago
    An example of a variant on this, when my wife and I started the journey to adopt in our State (NJ), we were required to give permission to speak to our doctors, and they went through everything. I mentioned something once to my doctor about cutting down on alcohol and that became a big deal in our interviews with State workers.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      I'd be curious when adoption started becoming so much more cumbersome, and whether the outcomes for the children have been significantly better. Including taking into account that some children get left to bounce around in foster care because loving parents who want to adopt them get hit as "false positives" as baddies in the onerous screening process.
- RavZterz 4y ago
  Agree with you. Being committed is the same as being in jail. They take your belongings and lock you in a room with a guard making sure you don't leave. Then you stay there at their discretion. I understand the reasoning in that if you hold someone off from suicide it should subside hopefully but it's all guesswork. I keep seeing articles about a new suicide booth in Switzerland and the rate of euthanasia increasing in Canada... I understand people don't have a solution, but it feels like the experts aren't even trying. I think some good advice is to treat therapy like medicine and realize it might not solve the problem and there are real risks involved. I don't want to turn anyone away from therapy, but it isn't for me.
  - 0xcde4c3db 4y ago
    > I understand people don't have a solution, but it feels like the experts aren't even trying. This is definitely the vibe I get from the mental health establishment. There's so much hot air about "awareness" and "stigma" and telling people "there is help", but that's essentially just marketing. That's not going to do much for someone who's seen a dozen therapists and tried as many medications to virtually no effect, or someone who found the "right treatment" and can hold down a job now but still feels like shit most of the time.
    - notch898a 4y ago
      I was taken involuntarily to a hospital. I was immediately presumed guilty and cursed at by nurses. Looked down upon by cops. Laughed at when I asked for a signed warrant or consent before acting. Oh yeah, I wasn't there for a mental health hold. A cop claimed there were drugs up my ass. Literally. They found nothing. Never got an apology. Just a bunch of judgemental assholes that assume if you're being evaluated for something it must be true. Even when discharged they marked "overdose" on my paperwork.... I was stone cold sober and was only there because some officer apparently thought I fit the profile of a drug smuggler. The medical workers didn't want to admit they were wrong so they just marked it as an overdose when absolutely nothing was found, including never performing a tox screen (it would have been negative). On the way out the doctor bragged about how he was monitoring closely to try and find a way to hold me longer, with the implied threat being he had hoped since whatever preconceived notion he had about me being a drug smuggler had no evidence that he could punish me instead by involuntarily committing me.
- jzb 4y ago
  If I knew you and you said that to me, I would consider that a huge red flag. What is it that you think you were going to say to a therapist that is going to wind up triggering any of the things you just mentioned? Therapists aren’t just running around mandatory reporting people for talking about their problems. The things that you mention are triggered when someone is at risk either the patient presents a very clear hazard to themselves or others, or a therapist learns about abuse. I’ve never heard of this happening lightly. The idea that a misinterpreted phrase is going to land you in legal trouble or involuntarily committed is simply wrong. Source: am married to a therapist and know what actually would trigger mandatory reporting. They might need some tweaking, but they absolutely shouldn’t be repealed.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    It's a red flag to be worried that you could possibly be misinterpreted and that the misinterpretation (innocent or otherwise) could lead to a red flag? That is some dystopian shit.... I'm not even allowed to be a skeptic about the red flag without being flagged. I think you've proven the case as to why I wouldn't want to see a therapist.
    - jzb 4y ago
      If you have an understanding of what leads to mandatory reporting, etc., and you think something you say is going to put you in jeopardy during a therapy session, it's absolutely a red flag. Just what in the Hell do you think you're going to say to a therapist that's going to trigger a mandatory report? Is there some huge wave of people being involuntarily committed I've somehow missed? Therapists don't try to have people committed or make reports lightly. They're not going to try to take your guns away or have you committed because you use bad words or seem angry during a session. They're not going to report you or whatever for disclosing drug use, or an unusual (but consensual) fetish. They won't even report you or try to have you committed if you talk about suicide unless you meet certain criteria around likely self-harm. Saying, "man, I just don't want to live anymore" isn't going to do it. Saying "I don't want to live anymore and I have a plan to end my life in the next 24 hours" might. Even then, they're going to try really hard to guide you to voluntary actions and not involuntary ones. The mandatory reporting laws are in place for specific scenarios like imminent danger, self-harm, or child abuse. So - if you've actually looked into this at all and think "hey, something I say in therapy is going to trigger mandatory reporting" - yeah, that's a huge, enormous, red flag. As I said, I'm married to a therapist. I know pretty well what triggers these things, what the process is, etc. It is an enormous headache for a therapist to have to do any of this - and it's certainly not like they're getting paid extra for every patient they report. And it's not like they have a red button that sends the men in white coats running into the room. In normal therapy it's a multi-step process of notifications and follow-ups where a patient would have ample opportunity to raise objections, etc. If law enforcement is involved, they're not going to just cuff somebody and ask questions later unless you confess to murder in a session or something. And, maybe it's just me, but I kind of think mandatory reporting laws that kick in if someone admits to murder or imminent plans to murder someone are a good thing, not a bad one. If you're working with a therapist through a hospital or whatever, they'll have a risk management department that will be involved in these scenarios. They're not going to support mandatory reporting or involuntary committing unless they feel it's necessary. If anything, those institutions are probably going to be biased against these things because of costs. Independent therapists are going to avoid this because it's a huge hassle for them, too. Plus it's usually going to risk their relationship with that patient and possibly put them at liability if the patient decides to sue or go after them with their certifying board. (There is also risk, of course, if they clearly have a mandatory reporting situation and don't take action.)
- wlll 4y ago
  It sounds like you need a lawyer not a therapist.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    maslow's hierarchy of useful professionals for dealing with life's traumas therapist d o c t o r l a w y e r s t r i p p e r
omgmajk 4y ago
>Self-reflection, a cornerstone of many therapeutic interventions, is a slippery slope. If not careful, it can amplify self-focus and aggravate rumination—the clinical term for repetitive negative thoughts about what can, did or will go wrong. This is absolutely true for some people, me included. I have learned to deal with these things in other ways but for the longest time I was stuck ruminating over stuff that happened decades ago and it always led to catastrophe.
halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
I largely agree with the post, however I don't really encounter the "therapy is the end-all" sentiment in the wild. Most people who I talk to or hear from realize therapy is just another tool, which compliments exercise, diet and other self-care techniques (which could include medication management as well).
Scubabear68 4y ago
The most important thing around therapy is to realize that therapists are people, and some are good at it and some..not so good. I have seen it work, and seen it be a total disaster, and who the therapist is seems to be a large percentage of that.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  Not only that, but also there needs to be a good match between therapist and patient. A therapist may be the best ever with one patient, and terrible with another, depending on the personalities involved. I think when someone is seeking therapy, they should be prepared to have to try out a few different ones before finding the right one for them.
  - Scubabear68 4y ago
    Very good point. We had to do that with one family member who just does not respond well to men, as one example.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      That's a great example. Or, some people respond better to a stern therapist, and some better to a gentle therapist, and so forth. And, as mystickphoenix said, what sort of therapy they offer makes a big difference. One thing that a therapist friend mentioned was that if you go see one, and they're just not working for you, to tell the therapist what it is that isn't fitting well. They very likely know a number of different therapists and may be able to point you to someone more suitable.
  - mystickphoenix 4y ago
    In addition, pay attention the modalit(ies) of the therapist. If you've tried a few therapists and haven't found one that clicked, try one that emphasizes a different modality. As an example: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) vs. Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) vs. Freudian Psychotherapy vs. Ketamine Therapy vs. [insert whatever modality you'd like]
- 4y ago
tpmx 4y ago
I'd totally want a quality controlled AI therapist I could talk to on my own computer. Preferably run within a throwaway docker container or similar.
- PaulKeeble 4y ago
  There have been a few (not docker containers but Facebook bots and such) and they perform in study as well as a real therapist does, that is to say not very well but sometimes it helps people. You can find a variety in apps on phones and such but its obviously a big data grab rather than the nice private medical data thing that we would actually want.
thenerdhead 4y ago
I get that it is trying to be contrarian to the popular book with a similar title. I just fundamentally disagree. You need to vent sometimes, you need to get it out of your head and into the world. You need someone to lend an ear here and there. You can’t talk about certain repressed emotions with certain people either. The trend seems to show we are more “connected” but more lonely than ever. How many people who frequent HN for example have someone they talk to about their life’s problems frequently? How many of those people want to be the person that only hear you venting without feeling used? Therapists serve a wonderful purpose. Little strings attached, you can vent to someone and get feedback. Don't like them? Find a new one just like you would a friend or family member who doesn’t want to listen. If America valued communities like they did many decades ago, we wouldn’t need as much mental health support because we would already be getting it. But therapy is a tool to be used and many do not ever utilize it. To generalize like this article is trying to do is a shame. There’s plenty of therapists that help people see the bottlenecks in their lives to then fix and become happier and no longer need it. I will 100% agree with the idea of stress to strength. Pavlov famously did experiments late in life on breaking dogs down with enough stress only to reverse the effects with enough stress. > “[Pavlov] spent the rest of his long life giving stress-induced nervous breakdowns to dogs, after which he would try to reverse the breakdowns, all the while keeping careful experimental records. > “He found (1) that he could classify dogs so as to predict how easily a particular dog would breakdown; (2) that the dogs hardest to break down were also the hardest to return to their pre-breakdown state; (3) that any dog could be broken down; and (4) that he couldn’t reverse a breakdown except by reimposing stress.” Oh and the most common way to resolve said issues? A relatedness or connectedness to something.
- chrisfosterelli 4y ago
  > To generalize like this article is trying to do is a shame. It seems to me that the article's author is trying to do the opposite of generalize. They are in fact saying that generalizing is not good; specifically that assuming everyone needs therapy for everything might not be a good stance.
  - thenerdhead 4y ago
klondaik 4y ago
[flagged]
- TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
  I'm not clear on why I should provide an email address to access a chatbot. I think I'll stick with the one that comes with GNU Emacs (M-x doctor).
  - klondaik 4y ago
    Hi there and thank you for your response! Asking for users' emails as part of the signup process is a reasonable way to verify that your chatbot is being used by real people. I am sure to handle users' information with care and respect their privacy.
    - TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
      > I am sure to handle users' information with care and respect their privacy. How? Is this data end-to-end encrypted? How long do you retain it? What will you do if a government shows up with a warrant or subpoena?
      - klondaik 4y ago
        It's important to clarify that emails are only retained for the duration of the chat session and are not stored beyond that. This approach ensures that users' email addresses are only used for verification purposes and are not vulnerable to unauthorized access or misuse.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
As a man, talk therapy has never worked for me. CBT helps me cope with negative emotions, but doesn't fix their cause (life under "capitalism" in the US). What's worked for me has been physical activity that doesn't involve a computer: * bashing out heavy metal on a cello (think Apocalyptica but without talent) * lifting weights * pounding a heavy punching bag As a result, I view advice to get therapy as I do the suggestion that I "touch grass"; they're the sort of thing people say because they don't have the guts to tell me to go pound sand.
- GavinMcG 4y ago
  As a man, talk therapy has worked wonders for me. No individual tool will fix the underlying cause, of course, and I also benefit greatly from weightlifting and other exercise. If therapy is less immediately effective for men, that may signal a greater need for it, not a lesser one. Learning to understand and experience one's emotions is both a skill therapy can develop and one that is needed for therapy (or journaling, etc.) to be maximally effective.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    And as a complete counter example, I find it useful but my wife does not. It doesn't seem to be a gender thing, but rather a personality thing, which may or may not line up along gender lines.
- glonq 4y ago
  Have you considered "life under socialism in <civilized country>" ?
  - TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
    Haven't been able to find one that will give entry/work visas to self-taught techies without university degrees.
gspencley 4y ago
Personally I've never gotten anything out of "talking to someone." I'm not saying that people shouldn't do it, if it works for them. I just can't think of a single time in my life where I had a problem and I "talked about it" to a friend or colleague (let alone therapist) and then felt better about it afterwards. I guess I'm just too "action oriented." When I was younger I had an issue with anger management. Today I suspect I might be on the high functioning autism spectrum, but we didn't know back then what we do today. Obviously if I'm right about that, then it also explains why "talking to people" doesn't work for me. But I digress. In my youth it was common for people to say to me "You need to vent before things blow up, get a punching bag or something." I used to buy into this idea that if you keep things bottled up eventually they will build and you will explode. That is, until someone pointed out that if your method of dealing with anger is to punch something, you are training yourself to respond to anger with violence. When I started to question the "venting" hypothesis I found healthier and more productive (for me) ways of dealing with meltdowns and ruminations. I think this idea can apply to "speaking with someone" as well. Again, I'm not saying that if there is a crises people shouldn't seek help. Just that speaking to someone, as far as I can tell, ought to have a purpose other than "I just need to talk." What does that mean, to "need" to talk? What are you looking to get out of the conversation? Do you need advice because you don't know what to do? Do you feel alone and isolated and need evidence that you are not? Anyway these are just my personal thoughts and ramblings ... always do what works best for you and if there's an emergency don't consider the random ramblings of some strange idiot on an Internet forum.
- thenerdhead 4y ago
  The bottom line is that you need a way to get the repressed emotions out. Sounds like you have a way that works for you. This article is basically telling you to not seek help because you have a way of dealing with your problems today.
- babelfish 4y ago
  If you're still having anger management issues (or depression, anxiety, whatever) - you should ask those questions to a therapist, who can help you find the best answers for you. Everyone needs something different.
tiahura 4y ago
I’ve always found Eliza to be sufficient.
- glonq 4y ago
  ] OK... "I’ve always found Eliza to be sufficient". Tell me more.
0xbadc0de5 4y ago
I'd never tell anyone not to seek professional help, but I'm also highly hesitant to recommend it except in extreme circumstances (ie: self harm, psychotic episodes, etc). The cynical / sceptical side of my brain often echos the quote "If you can't be part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem." But the logical rational side thinks: hey, we pay for financial advice and legal advice, why not psychological advice? So, you do you?
drewcoo 4y ago
Maybe, if you're in need of therapy but aren't in it, you're already making your own excuses for not going. But just in case that's too taxing in your current state, here's a "helpful" article!
pictur 4y ago
The important thing is not to talk to someone, but to talk about things that you can take action that will work. If you are talking about the right things, it will be useful to you. but it doesn't work and if you're talking about the same things, it's normal that it doesn't help.
PaulKeeble 4y ago
In a hacker news/there is a business/reseach in here somewhere view I think a number of these therapy issues may be poorly understood biological diseases, not all but definitely some of them. We are finding links with depression and anxiety with the microbiome and I wouldn't be surprised to find anger control issues to also potentially be linked with the microbiome. But the microbiome links may just be correlation and its really something wrong in the human and the immune system is impact the biome. A lot of people find L Reuteri "yoghurts" help for example but you can not buy them you have to make it yourself. There is a multiple billion business in this if you can find just one microbiome adjusting drug that improves these conditions.
rektide 4y ago
I have long felt resistant to therapy because while there are some clear general human situations I face, so much come down to specifics, to how I take to the world and what I want & expect in community & my interests versus what is available, versus where other people are. There's abstract situations here, but I'd rather have peers that really can see the basis I'm coming from, that have some ability to be on my side, as an alien apart from the world & wishing I saw more me & what I love so much reflected back in it.

44 points by alexzeitler 4y ago

I would never speak to a therapist unless all the laws regarding mandatory reporting, red flags, FAA and firearms licensing record searches, and involuntary committal are repealed. Until then they are a huge blinking hazard that the slightest misinterpreted phrase will result in serious legal hassles.

zb1plus 4y ago
Probably better to talk to a therapist overseas virtually to avoid silly government rules. It also lets you keep a good therapist even when you move to a different territory or change insurance (as an American)
function_seven 4y ago
Likewise. And for the same reason, you should probably lie to your doctor about any drug use, past or present. Which is a terrible policy to have, as you may be given treatments or prescriptions that interact negatively. But at least you can independently research those possible effects.
- Scubabear68 4y ago
  An example of a variant on this, when my wife and I started the journey to adopt in our State (NJ), we were required to give permission to speak to our doctors, and they went through everything. I mentioned something once to my doctor about cutting down on alcohol and that became a big deal in our interviews with State workers.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    I'd be curious when adoption started becoming so much more cumbersome, and whether the outcomes for the children have been significantly better. Including taking into account that some children get left to bounce around in foster care because loving parents who want to adopt them get hit as "false positives" as baddies in the onerous screening process.
RavZterz 4y ago
Agree with you. Being committed is the same as being in jail. They take your belongings and lock you in a room with a guard making sure you don't leave. Then you stay there at their discretion. I understand the reasoning in that if you hold someone off from suicide it should subside hopefully but it's all guesswork. I keep seeing articles about a new suicide booth in Switzerland and the rate of euthanasia increasing in Canada... I understand people don't have a solution, but it feels like the experts aren't even trying. I think some good advice is to treat therapy like medicine and realize it might not solve the problem and there are real risks involved. I don't want to turn anyone away from therapy, but it isn't for me.
- 0xcde4c3db 4y ago
  > I understand people don't have a solution, but it feels like the experts aren't even trying. This is definitely the vibe I get from the mental health establishment. There's so much hot air about "awareness" and "stigma" and telling people "there is help", but that's essentially just marketing. That's not going to do much for someone who's seen a dozen therapists and tried as many medications to virtually no effect, or someone who found the "right treatment" and can hold down a job now but still feels like shit most of the time.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    I was taken involuntarily to a hospital. I was immediately presumed guilty and cursed at by nurses. Looked down upon by cops. Laughed at when I asked for a signed warrant or consent before acting. Oh yeah, I wasn't there for a mental health hold. A cop claimed there were drugs up my ass. Literally. They found nothing. Never got an apology. Just a bunch of judgemental assholes that assume if you're being evaluated for something it must be true. Even when discharged they marked "overdose" on my paperwork.... I was stone cold sober and was only there because some officer apparently thought I fit the profile of a drug smuggler. The medical workers didn't want to admit they were wrong so they just marked it as an overdose when absolutely nothing was found, including never performing a tox screen (it would have been negative). On the way out the doctor bragged about how he was monitoring closely to try and find a way to hold me longer, with the implied threat being he had hoped since whatever preconceived notion he had about me being a drug smuggler had no evidence that he could punish me instead by involuntarily committing me.
jzb 4y ago
If I knew you and you said that to me, I would consider that a huge red flag. What is it that you think you were going to say to a therapist that is going to wind up triggering any of the things you just mentioned? Therapists aren’t just running around mandatory reporting people for talking about their problems. The things that you mention are triggered when someone is at risk either the patient presents a very clear hazard to themselves or others, or a therapist learns about abuse. I’ve never heard of this happening lightly. The idea that a misinterpreted phrase is going to land you in legal trouble or involuntarily committed is simply wrong. Source: am married to a therapist and know what actually would trigger mandatory reporting. They might need some tweaking, but they absolutely shouldn’t be repealed.
- notch898a 4y ago
  It's a red flag to be worried that you could possibly be misinterpreted and that the misinterpretation (innocent or otherwise) could lead to a red flag? That is some dystopian shit.... I'm not even allowed to be a skeptic about the red flag without being flagged. I think you've proven the case as to why I wouldn't want to see a therapist.
  - jzb 4y ago
    If you have an understanding of what leads to mandatory reporting, etc., and you think something you say is going to put you in jeopardy during a therapy session, it's absolutely a red flag. Just what in the Hell do you think you're going to say to a therapist that's going to trigger a mandatory report? Is there some huge wave of people being involuntarily committed I've somehow missed? Therapists don't try to have people committed or make reports lightly. They're not going to try to take your guns away or have you committed because you use bad words or seem angry during a session. They're not going to report you or whatever for disclosing drug use, or an unusual (but consensual) fetish. They won't even report you or try to have you committed if you talk about suicide unless you meet certain criteria around likely self-harm. Saying, "man, I just don't want to live anymore" isn't going to do it. Saying "I don't want to live anymore and I have a plan to end my life in the next 24 hours" might. Even then, they're going to try really hard to guide you to voluntary actions and not involuntary ones. The mandatory reporting laws are in place for specific scenarios like imminent danger, self-harm, or child abuse. So - if you've actually looked into this at all and think "hey, something I say in therapy is going to trigger mandatory reporting" - yeah, that's a huge, enormous, red flag. As I said, I'm married to a therapist. I know pretty well what triggers these things, what the process is, etc. It is an enormous headache for a therapist to have to do any of this - and it's certainly not like they're getting paid extra for every patient they report. And it's not like they have a red button that sends the men in white coats running into the room. In normal therapy it's a multi-step process of notifications and follow-ups where a patient would have ample opportunity to raise objections, etc. If law enforcement is involved, they're not going to just cuff somebody and ask questions later unless you confess to murder in a session or something. And, maybe it's just me, but I kind of think mandatory reporting laws that kick in if someone admits to murder or imminent plans to murder someone are a good thing, not a bad one. If you're working with a therapist through a hospital or whatever, they'll have a risk management department that will be involved in these scenarios. They're not going to support mandatory reporting or involuntary committing unless they feel it's necessary. If anything, those institutions are probably going to be biased against these things because of costs. Independent therapists are going to avoid this because it's a huge hassle for them, too. Plus it's usually going to risk their relationship with that patient and possibly put them at liability if the patient decides to sue or go after them with their certifying board. (There is also risk, of course, if they clearly have a mandatory reporting situation and don't take action.)
wlll 4y ago
It sounds like you need a lawyer not a therapist.
- notch898a 4y ago
  maslow's hierarchy of useful professionals for dealing with life's traumas therapist d o c t o r l a w y e r s t r i p p e r

omgmajk 4y ago

>Self-reflection, a cornerstone of many therapeutic interventions, is a slippery slope. If not careful, it can amplify self-focus and aggravate rumination—the clinical term for repetitive negative thoughts about what can, did or will go wrong. This is absolutely true for some people, me included. I have learned to deal with these things in other ways but for the longest time I was stuck ruminating over stuff that happened decades ago and it always led to catastrophe.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago

I largely agree with the post, however I don't really encounter the "therapy is the end-all" sentiment in the wild. Most people who I talk to or hear from realize therapy is just another tool, which compliments exercise, diet and other self-care techniques (which could include medication management as well).

Scubabear68 4y ago

The most important thing around therapy is to realize that therapists are people, and some are good at it and some..not so good. I have seen it work, and seen it be a total disaster, and who the therapist is seems to be a large percentage of that.

JohnFen 4y ago
Not only that, but also there needs to be a good match between therapist and patient. A therapist may be the best ever with one patient, and terrible with another, depending on the personalities involved. I think when someone is seeking therapy, they should be prepared to have to try out a few different ones before finding the right one for them.
- Scubabear68 4y ago
  Very good point. We had to do that with one family member who just does not respond well to men, as one example.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    That's a great example. Or, some people respond better to a stern therapist, and some better to a gentle therapist, and so forth. And, as mystickphoenix said, what sort of therapy they offer makes a big difference. One thing that a therapist friend mentioned was that if you go see one, and they're just not working for you, to tell the therapist what it is that isn't fitting well. They very likely know a number of different therapists and may be able to point you to someone more suitable.
- mystickphoenix 4y ago
  In addition, pay attention the modalit(ies) of the therapist. If you've tried a few therapists and haven't found one that clicked, try one that emphasizes a different modality. As an example: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) vs. Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) vs. Freudian Psychotherapy vs. Ketamine Therapy vs. [insert whatever modality you'd like]
4y ago

tpmx 4y ago

I'd totally want a quality controlled AI therapist I could talk to on my own computer. Preferably run within a throwaway docker container or similar.

PaulKeeble 4y ago
There have been a few (not docker containers but Facebook bots and such) and they perform in study as well as a real therapist does, that is to say not very well but sometimes it helps people. You can find a variety in apps on phones and such but its obviously a big data grab rather than the nice private medical data thing that we would actually want.

thenerdhead 4y ago

I get that it is trying to be contrarian to the popular book with a similar title. I just fundamentally disagree. You need to vent sometimes, you need to get it out of your head and into the world. You need someone to lend an ear here and there. You can’t talk about certain repressed emotions with certain people either. The trend seems to show we are more “connected” but more lonely than ever. How many people who frequent HN for example have someone they talk to about their life’s problems frequently? How many of those people want to be the person that only hear you venting without feeling used? Therapists serve a wonderful purpose. Little strings attached, you can vent to someone and get feedback. Don't like them? Find a new one just like you would a friend or family member who doesn’t want to listen. If America valued communities like they did many decades ago, we wouldn’t need as much mental health support because we would already be getting it. But therapy is a tool to be used and many do not ever utilize it. To generalize like this article is trying to do is a shame. There’s plenty of therapists that help people see the bottlenecks in their lives to then fix and become happier and no longer need it. I will 100% agree with the idea of stress to strength. Pavlov famously did experiments late in life on breaking dogs down with enough stress only to reverse the effects with enough stress. > “[Pavlov] spent the rest of his long life giving stress-induced nervous breakdowns to dogs, after which he would try to reverse the breakdowns, all the while keeping careful experimental records. > “He found (1) that he could classify dogs so as to predict how easily a particular dog would breakdown; (2) that the dogs hardest to break down were also the hardest to return to their pre-breakdown state; (3) that any dog could be broken down; and (4) that he couldn’t reverse a breakdown except by reimposing stress.” Oh and the most common way to resolve said issues? A relatedness or connectedness to something.

chrisfosterelli 4y ago
> To generalize like this article is trying to do is a shame. It seems to me that the article's author is trying to do the opposite of generalize. They are in fact saying that generalizing is not good; specifically that assuming everyone needs therapy for everything might not be a good stance.
- thenerdhead 4y ago

klondaik 4y ago

[flagged]

TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
I'm not clear on why I should provide an email address to access a chatbot. I think I'll stick with the one that comes with GNU Emacs (M-x doctor).
- klondaik 4y ago
  Hi there and thank you for your response! Asking for users' emails as part of the signup process is a reasonable way to verify that your chatbot is being used by real people. I am sure to handle users' information with care and respect their privacy.
  - TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
    > I am sure to handle users' information with care and respect their privacy. How? Is this data end-to-end encrypted? How long do you retain it? What will you do if a government shows up with a warrant or subpoena?
    - klondaik 4y ago
      It's important to clarify that emails are only retained for the duration of the chat session and are not stored beyond that. This approach ensures that users' email addresses are only used for verification purposes and are not vulnerable to unauthorized access or misuse.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago

As a man, talk therapy has never worked for me. CBT helps me cope with negative emotions, but doesn't fix their cause (life under "capitalism" in the US). What's worked for me has been physical activity that doesn't involve a computer: * bashing out heavy metal on a cello (think Apocalyptica but without talent) * lifting weights * pounding a heavy punching bag As a result, I view advice to get therapy as I do the suggestion that I "touch grass"; they're the sort of thing people say because they don't have the guts to tell me to go pound sand.

GavinMcG 4y ago
As a man, talk therapy has worked wonders for me. No individual tool will fix the underlying cause, of course, and I also benefit greatly from weightlifting and other exercise. If therapy is less immediately effective for men, that may signal a greater need for it, not a lesser one. Learning to understand and experience one's emotions is both a skill therapy can develop and one that is needed for therapy (or journaling, etc.) to be maximally effective.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  And as a complete counter example, I find it useful but my wife does not. It doesn't seem to be a gender thing, but rather a personality thing, which may or may not line up along gender lines.
glonq 4y ago
Have you considered "life under socialism in <civilized country>" ?
- TheMoonToMyLeft 4y ago
  Haven't been able to find one that will give entry/work visas to self-taught techies without university degrees.

gspencley 4y ago

Personally I've never gotten anything out of "talking to someone." I'm not saying that people shouldn't do it, if it works for them. I just can't think of a single time in my life where I had a problem and I "talked about it" to a friend or colleague (let alone therapist) and then felt better about it afterwards. I guess I'm just too "action oriented." When I was younger I had an issue with anger management. Today I suspect I might be on the high functioning autism spectrum, but we didn't know back then what we do today. Obviously if I'm right about that, then it also explains why "talking to people" doesn't work for me. But I digress. In my youth it was common for people to say to me "You need to vent before things blow up, get a punching bag or something." I used to buy into this idea that if you keep things bottled up eventually they will build and you will explode. That is, until someone pointed out that if your method of dealing with anger is to punch something, you are training yourself to respond to anger with violence. When I started to question the "venting" hypothesis I found healthier and more productive (for me) ways of dealing with meltdowns and ruminations. I think this idea can apply to "speaking with someone" as well. Again, I'm not saying that if there is a crises people shouldn't seek help. Just that speaking to someone, as far as I can tell, ought to have a purpose other than "I just need to talk." What does that mean, to "need" to talk? What are you looking to get out of the conversation? Do you need advice because you don't know what to do? Do you feel alone and isolated and need evidence that you are not? Anyway these are just my personal thoughts and ramblings ... always do what works best for you and if there's an emergency don't consider the random ramblings of some strange idiot on an Internet forum.

thenerdhead 4y ago
The bottom line is that you need a way to get the repressed emotions out. Sounds like you have a way that works for you. This article is basically telling you to not seek help because you have a way of dealing with your problems today.
babelfish 4y ago
If you're still having anger management issues (or depression, anxiety, whatever) - you should ask those questions to a therapist, who can help you find the best answers for you. Everyone needs something different.

tiahura 4y ago

I’ve always found Eliza to be sufficient.

glonq 4y ago
] OK... "I’ve always found Eliza to be sufficient". Tell me more.

0xbadc0de5 4y ago

I'd never tell anyone not to seek professional help, but I'm also highly hesitant to recommend it except in extreme circumstances (ie: self harm, psychotic episodes, etc). The cynical / sceptical side of my brain often echos the quote "If you can't be part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem." But the logical rational side thinks: hey, we pay for financial advice and legal advice, why not psychological advice? So, you do you?

drewcoo 4y ago

Maybe, if you're in need of therapy but aren't in it, you're already making your own excuses for not going. But just in case that's too taxing in your current state, here's a "helpful" article!

pictur 4y ago

The important thing is not to talk to someone, but to talk about things that you can take action that will work. If you are talking about the right things, it will be useful to you. but it doesn't work and if you're talking about the same things, it's normal that it doesn't help.

PaulKeeble 4y ago

In a hacker news/there is a business/reseach in here somewhere view I think a number of these therapy issues may be poorly understood biological diseases, not all but definitely some of them. We are finding links with depression and anxiety with the microbiome and I wouldn't be surprised to find anger control issues to also potentially be linked with the microbiome. But the microbiome links may just be correlation and its really something wrong in the human and the immune system is impact the biome. A lot of people find L Reuteri "yoghurts" help for example but you can not buy them you have to make it yourself. There is a multiple billion business in this if you can find just one microbiome adjusting drug that improves these conditions.

rektide 4y ago

I have long felt resistant to therapy because while there are some clear general human situations I face, so much come down to specifics, to how I take to the world and what I want & expect in community & my interests versus what is available, versus where other people are. There's abstract situations here, but I'd rather have peers that really can see the basis I'm coming from, that have some ability to be on my side, as an alien apart from the world & wishing I saw more me & what I love so much reflected back in it.