5 ms·

ICC issues arrest warrant for Putin over Ukraine war crimes

27 points by netfortius 4y ago

AlbertCory 4y ago
(This is not in any way to excuse Putin or his war.) If you wanted an ideal way to ensure that he will never give up, this is it. Pure grandstanding.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > If you wanted an ideal way to ensure that he will never give up, this is it. He will never give up, that’s already guaranteed, much as other actors have diplomatic reasons to pretend that that is not as certain as it is. Russia can go on after losing the war, Putin cannot (even without this ICC action.)
- NicoJuicy 4y ago
  Well, an emperor without clothes comes to mind.
newaccount2023 4y ago
ICC is just the Judicial Branch of NATO we have no working "international system"
Kukumber 4y ago
[flagged]
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > They didn’t do shit for the US in Irak Iraq is not a State Party to the Rome Statute (nor is it a nonparty that voluntarily acceded to ICC jurisdiction on its territory for the time in question), and therefore the ICC does not have jurisdiction on a territorial basis for war crimes in Iraq. The US is not a State Party to the Rome Statute, and therefore the ICC does not have jurisdiction on the basis of nationality over war crimes committed by Americans. It needs one or the other to exercise jurisdiction over war crimes. (The ICC did conduct an investigation of allegations of UK war crimes in Iraq, over which it would have jurisdiction as the UK is a State Party. ) [0] Ukraine is also not a State Party to the Rome Statue, but has made a declaration accepting ICC jurisdiction for war crimes on its territory twice (first for crimes between 21 November 2013 to 22 February 2014 and then a second open-ended declaration covering the time period from 20 February 2014 onwards. As a result, the ICC has jurisdiction on a territorial basis for crimes committed within the territory of Ukraine from 21 November 2013 onwards. > they didn’t do shit for Ukraine arming people in the donbas in 2014 Arming people within your sovereign territory is not a war crime. (Heck, arming people outside of your sovereign territory is also not a war crime.) > they don’t do shit for the Israeli colony, They have not yet reached the point of issuing warrants; they have opened investigations (delayed in part by the process of determining the extent of the court’s territorial jurisdiction given the nature of the situation) and made determinations that there is reasonable basis to believe that IDF, Hamas, and other forces in Palestine have committed specific enumerated war crimes. [1] > but they do shit for Putin? Russia in Ukraine has been rather unusually flagrant in its war crimes (largely, I would assume, because of the confidence they feel in their impunity.) [0] https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/201209-otp-final-report-iraq-uk-eng.pdf https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/2... [1] https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/210303-office-of-the-prosecutor-palestine-summary-findings-eng.pdf https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/2...
  - brwck 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Russia isn’t a party either. Right, Russia being neither a party nor a non-party who has acceded to ICC jurisdiction on its territory, war crimes committed on Russian soil are not (by territory) within the jurisdiction of the ICC, so would only be subject to the ICC if committed by nationals of a State Party to the Rome Statute. But crimes in Russia aren’t at issue. > And neither is ukriane. Ukraine is a non-party that has voluntarily submitted to ICC jurisdiction for war crimes on its territory beginning on a specified date, which gives the ICC the same jurisdiction for such crimes it would have were Ukraine a State Party.
      - brwck 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > If that is so, then the ICC has jurisdiction over Ukrainians, not Russians. No, it has jurisdiction over crimes on Ukrainian territory, regardless of the actors. (Were Ukraine a state party, and not a state that had acceded to territorial jurisdiction without being a party, it would also have jurisdiction over Ukrainian personnel, irrespective of territorial considerations.) > So Britain ( party to ICC ) could murder children in Libya but that’s okay No, because Britian is an ICC party, ICC has jurisdiction over its troops anywhere without needing territorial jurisdiction, which is why there was an extensive ICC investigation and report based on allegations of UK war crimes in Iraq. Were reports made to the ICC of UK alleged war crimes in Libya, they would be subject to its jurisdiction.
        brwck 4y ago
        > No, it has jurisdiction over crimes on Ukrainian territory, regardless of the actors. That's not how it works. Russia isn't party to the ICC. Lets see which is more likely. Russia arrests the members of ICC or the ICC arresting putin. > No, because Britian is an ICC party And yet, in all the wars and murders of millions of children, not a single prosecution of a brit. The ICC being in the hague is like the trial of harvey weinstein being held in his house with him as the judge. It makes a mockery of justice by making the criminals the judges. But that's what the ICC is. A mockery of justice.
- brwck 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > They almost exclusively target africans, middle easterners, etc. That's because the last major war in Europe (before the current round of Russian aggression) was before the ICC; the ICC was a follow-on to special ad hoc tribunals for individual situations, one of the most significant being the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, which targeted, almost exclusively, Europeans. > Wonder why the ICC isn’t targeting anyone from france, britain, etc for Libya or Syria. Because they’ve gotten no reports of such crimes? (Unlike the UK in Iraq, where they did, and performed an extensive investigation and report, ultimately concluding no basis for charges at the Court.)
    - brwck 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > You mean they targeted the enemy that NATO was attacking? Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia? Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Kosovo Liberation Army? Republic of Croatia? All of them had people charged by the ICTY, but I don’t think anyone thinks of those as “the enemy NATO was attacking”.
- lisasays 4y ago
  They didn't do shit for Ukraine arming people in the donbas in 2014 What on earth are you talking about? Specifically, with references please.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    I know US education system is kinda poor, but please open some history books Everything is documented https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworl... https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape-idUKBREA151VA20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape-idUKBREA... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%9320... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-specialreport-idUSKBN0FY0UA20140729 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-speci... https://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html https://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill... and many more
    - lisasays 4y ago
      Pointing to a generic article about the Donbas War does not answer the question. The completely unrelated pieces about Iraq and Poppy Bush, even less so. Strangely, the Reuters article you linked to was about the separatists getting arms from Russia, not Ukraine.
      - Kukumber 4y ago
        use articles as reference, not as ultimate truth the main point of that one was the question "where does Ukraine gets their weapon from" then you have the leaked audio from the US government who clearly was preparing the coup cross-referencing articles should be common sense > The completely unrelated pieces about Iraq and Poppy Bush, even less so. It is all linked, again use articles as reference and history books as data Napoleon, Hitler? Soviet Union? should ring bells, all of them wanted to push East Why does the US also want to push NATO East?
0xDEF 4y ago
Note that this is not for launching the war and invading Ukraine. This is for the specific crime of abducting tens of thousands of Ukrainian children and putting them in "orphanages and foster families" (Russia's claim) where they are brainwashed into becoming Russians. Modern day cultural genocide.
guilhas 4y ago
Pompeo on ICC: U.S. won't be threatened by 'kangaroo court' https://www.reuters.com/article/us-warcrimes-afghanistan-trump-pompeo-idAFKBN23I2AJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-warcrimes-afghanistan-tru... Trump Administration Sanctions ICC Prosecutor Investigating Alleged U.S. War Crimes in Afghanistan https://www.npr.org/2020/09/02/908896108/trump-administration-sanctions-icc-prosecutor-investigating-alleged-u-s-war-crim https://www.npr.org/2020/09/02/908896108/trump-administratio... Pompeo warns ICC of ‘consequences’ for potential war crimes probe of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-warns-icc-against-potential-illegitimate-war-crimes-probe-of-israel/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-warns-icc-against-poten... US sanctions senior ICC officials, calls court 'corrupt' and 'illegitimate' https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-sanctions-top-icc-officials-calls-court-corrupt-and-illegitimate https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-sanctions-top-icc-offi... Video Madeleine Albright Saying 500,000 Iraqi Kids' Deaths 'Worth It' Resurfaces https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193 https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-ira...
Awelton 4y ago
This is almost exactly as useful as if I were to declare my intent to arrest Kim Jong-Un. Nobody takes the ICC seriously.

27 points by netfortius 4y ago

(This is not in any way to excuse Putin or his war.) If you wanted an ideal way to ensure that he will never give up, this is it. Pure grandstanding.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> If you wanted an ideal way to ensure that he will never give up, this is it. He will never give up, that’s already guaranteed, much as other actors have diplomatic reasons to pretend that that is not as certain as it is. Russia can go on after losing the war, Putin cannot (even without this ICC action.)
NicoJuicy 4y ago
Well, an emperor without clothes comes to mind.

newaccount2023 4y ago

ICC is just the Judicial Branch of NATO we have no working "international system"

Kukumber 4y ago

[flagged]

dragonwriter 4y ago
> They didn’t do shit for the US in Irak Iraq is not a State Party to the Rome Statute (nor is it a nonparty that voluntarily acceded to ICC jurisdiction on its territory for the time in question), and therefore the ICC does not have jurisdiction on a territorial basis for war crimes in Iraq. The US is not a State Party to the Rome Statute, and therefore the ICC does not have jurisdiction on the basis of nationality over war crimes committed by Americans. It needs one or the other to exercise jurisdiction over war crimes. (The ICC did conduct an investigation of allegations of UK war crimes in Iraq, over which it would have jurisdiction as the UK is a State Party. ) [0] Ukraine is also not a State Party to the Rome Statue, but has made a declaration accepting ICC jurisdiction for war crimes on its territory twice (first for crimes between 21 November 2013 to 22 February 2014 and then a second open-ended declaration covering the time period from 20 February 2014 onwards. As a result, the ICC has jurisdiction on a territorial basis for crimes committed within the territory of Ukraine from 21 November 2013 onwards. > they didn’t do shit for Ukraine arming people in the donbas in 2014 Arming people within your sovereign territory is not a war crime. (Heck, arming people outside of your sovereign territory is also not a war crime.) > they don’t do shit for the Israeli colony, They have not yet reached the point of issuing warrants; they have opened investigations (delayed in part by the process of determining the extent of the court’s territorial jurisdiction given the nature of the situation) and made determinations that there is reasonable basis to believe that IDF, Hamas, and other forces in Palestine have committed specific enumerated war crimes. [1] > but they do shit for Putin? Russia in Ukraine has been rather unusually flagrant in its war crimes (largely, I would assume, because of the confidence they feel in their impunity.) [0] https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/201209-otp-final-report-iraq-uk-eng.pdf https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/2... [1] https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/210303-office-of-the-prosecutor-palestine-summary-findings-eng.pdf https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/itemsDocuments/2...
- brwck 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Russia isn’t a party either. Right, Russia being neither a party nor a non-party who has acceded to ICC jurisdiction on its territory, war crimes committed on Russian soil are not (by territory) within the jurisdiction of the ICC, so would only be subject to the ICC if committed by nationals of a State Party to the Rome Statute. But crimes in Russia aren’t at issue. > And neither is ukriane. Ukraine is a non-party that has voluntarily submitted to ICC jurisdiction for war crimes on its territory beginning on a specified date, which gives the ICC the same jurisdiction for such crimes it would have were Ukraine a State Party.
    - brwck 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > If that is so, then the ICC has jurisdiction over Ukrainians, not Russians. No, it has jurisdiction over crimes on Ukrainian territory, regardless of the actors. (Were Ukraine a state party, and not a state that had acceded to territorial jurisdiction without being a party, it would also have jurisdiction over Ukrainian personnel, irrespective of territorial considerations.) > So Britain ( party to ICC ) could murder children in Libya but that’s okay No, because Britian is an ICC party, ICC has jurisdiction over its troops anywhere without needing territorial jurisdiction, which is why there was an extensive ICC investigation and report based on allegations of UK war crimes in Iraq. Were reports made to the ICC of UK alleged war crimes in Libya, they would be subject to its jurisdiction.
        brwck 4y ago
        > No, it has jurisdiction over crimes on Ukrainian territory, regardless of the actors. That's not how it works. Russia isn't party to the ICC. Lets see which is more likely. Russia arrests the members of ICC or the ICC arresting putin. > No, because Britian is an ICC party And yet, in all the wars and murders of millions of children, not a single prosecution of a brit. The ICC being in the hague is like the trial of harvey weinstein being held in his house with him as the judge. It makes a mockery of justice by making the criminals the judges. But that's what the ICC is. A mockery of justice.
brwck 4y ago
[flagged]
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > They almost exclusively target africans, middle easterners, etc. That's because the last major war in Europe (before the current round of Russian aggression) was before the ICC; the ICC was a follow-on to special ad hoc tribunals for individual situations, one of the most significant being the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, which targeted, almost exclusively, Europeans. > Wonder why the ICC isn’t targeting anyone from france, britain, etc for Libya or Syria. Because they’ve gotten no reports of such crimes? (Unlike the UK in Iraq, where they did, and performed an extensive investigation and report, ultimately concluding no basis for charges at the Court.)
  - brwck 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > You mean they targeted the enemy that NATO was attacking? Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia? Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Kosovo Liberation Army? Republic of Croatia? All of them had people charged by the ICTY, but I don’t think anyone thinks of those as “the enemy NATO was attacking”.
lisasays 4y ago
They didn't do shit for Ukraine arming people in the donbas in 2014 What on earth are you talking about? Specifically, with references please.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  I know US education system is kinda poor, but please open some history books Everything is documented https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworl... https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape-idUKBREA151VA20140207 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-ukraine-tape-idUKBREA... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%932022) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014%E2%80%9320... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-specialreport-idUSKBN0FY0UA20140729 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-speci... https://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html https://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill... and many more
  - lisasays 4y ago
    Pointing to a generic article about the Donbas War does not answer the question. The completely unrelated pieces about Iraq and Poppy Bush, even less so. Strangely, the Reuters article you linked to was about the separatists getting arms from Russia, not Ukraine.
    - Kukumber 4y ago
      use articles as reference, not as ultimate truth the main point of that one was the question "where does Ukraine gets their weapon from" then you have the leaked audio from the US government who clearly was preparing the coup cross-referencing articles should be common sense > The completely unrelated pieces about Iraq and Poppy Bush, even less so. It is all linked, again use articles as reference and history books as data Napoleon, Hitler? Soviet Union? should ring bells, all of them wanted to push East Why does the US also want to push NATO East?

0xDEF 4y ago

Note that this is not for launching the war and invading Ukraine. This is for the specific crime of abducting tens of thousands of Ukrainian children and putting them in "orphanages and foster families" (Russia's claim) where they are brainwashed into becoming Russians. Modern day cultural genocide.

guilhas 4y ago

Pompeo on ICC: U.S. won't be threatened by 'kangaroo court' https://www.reuters.com/article/us-warcrimes-afghanistan-trump-pompeo-idAFKBN23I2AJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-warcrimes-afghanistan-tru... Trump Administration Sanctions ICC Prosecutor Investigating Alleged U.S. War Crimes in Afghanistan https://www.npr.org/2020/09/02/908896108/trump-administration-sanctions-icc-prosecutor-investigating-alleged-u-s-war-crim https://www.npr.org/2020/09/02/908896108/trump-administratio... Pompeo warns ICC of ‘consequences’ for potential war crimes probe of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-warns-icc-against-potential-illegitimate-war-crimes-probe-of-israel/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-warns-icc-against-poten... US sanctions senior ICC officials, calls court 'corrupt' and 'illegitimate' https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-sanctions-top-icc-officials-calls-court-corrupt-and-illegitimate https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-sanctions-top-icc-offi... Video Madeleine Albright Saying 500,000 Iraqi Kids' Deaths 'Worth It' Resurfaces https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193 https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-ira...

Awelton 4y ago

This is almost exactly as useful as if I were to declare my intent to arrest Kim Jong-Un. Nobody takes the ICC seriously.