4 ms·

I learned way more useful skills from getting internet access in 1998 than from 90% of my in school teachers (and I went to a decent public school). For kids t

I learned way more useful skills from getting internet access in 1998 than from 90% of my in school teachers (and I went to a decent public school). For kids that are curious and want to learn - access to something like gpt-4 is amazing. All I had were guides like Eric S. Raymond's how to be a hacker that I had stumbled onto while trying to learn. It was so much harder to learn programming back then if you didn't know where to start and nobody around you knew about it. With gpt-4 you can just ask and get examples.

Avicebron 4y ago
There is something to be said about struggling through learning difficult material on your own, and the sense of accomplishment/retention that it instills. I started programming a few years after you and there was a similarly difficult learning curve in sourcing the materials, setting up my own environment, and making progress on your own. My little brother is doing some form of machine learning in grad school currently and when I saw him last around when ChatGPT was starting to become a mainstream talking point we discussed a lot about how immediately going to something that can answer a question (e.g. how do i write code that does X) is tempting but, can be a bit dangerous when we offload our own ability to reason through something to an external entity. Shouldn't we be fostering thinking patterns that allow for creativity and innovation when given very little, versus fostering a sense of "oh I can always get the right answer to a question whenever I need it. So why bother with building a general mental problem solving framework for myself"?
- chatmasta 4y ago
  You could have made that same argument about memory and recall skills prior to search engines. But I'm not sure anyone is now arguing search engines have been detrimental to working intelligence.
  - FrojoS 4y ago
    Plenty of people are arguing that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_Google_Making_Us_Stupid%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_Google_Making_Us_Stupid%3F https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/306868/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-goog...
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    I pretty much skated through college on my ability to remember trivial facts because this is what the classes I took graded on. Does anyone care that the head of the art history department did his phd on Picasso, taught two full semester courses on him and I know more about Picasso’s life than probably 99.9% of the general population? Doubtful… But I do know things that never made it into the search engines (I’ve looked) and this knowledge is locked up in a (probably) retired professor and the few percent of students who actually listened to his lectures twenty-something years ago. Now everyone assumes that if it isn’t in google it doesn’t exist and have very little idea how to find information outside of what’s contained in its “record of all things”.
  - StrangeATractor 4y ago
    They actually have studies that show people consistently score lower on IQ tests when they know their phone is in the same room as them.
- fauigerzigerk 4y ago
  >There is something to be said about struggling through learning difficult material on your own Depends on what the difficulty is. I remember when I started to learn programming back in 1991, I was learning from books. These books were very expensive and I could only afford a few of them. I didn't have access to a library because I wasn't in any school or university. I was a musician with a side job at a theatre box office. My main problem was that many of the explanations and examples in my programming books left some questions unanswered. It was even worse with maths, which I also tried to learn at the time. I got stuck a lot. If I'd had access to something like stackoverflow or Google, I could have progressed much much faster. I do think that getting stuck and being forced to figure something out the hard way is sometimes useful. But more often than not I didn't get stuck because the material was actually difficult or because I was solving difficult problems. I got stuck because the one and only explanation available to me was imprecise or incomplete. All I needed was the same thing explained with slightly different words to clear up my misunderstandings. On the whole I think learning these things today is immeasurably more productive. People are a lot less dependent on luck or money. You don't need to be one of the lucky few who has access to good teachers. You don't have to buy expensive books. Everyone has access to excellent online tutorials, documentation, source code and to thousands of competent professionals willing to help for free. It's absolute heaven. Back then it was hell.
themaninthedark 4y ago
Is asking and getting answers how to learn? Think about most of the stuff you have really learnt over the course of your life, was it from sitting in a classroom with information being spoon-fed to you, from reading a Wikipedia article? Or was it because you had to search hard for the information, try and fail before you succeeded? My bet is that your learning comes from the lather not the former. Good teachers that I have had would point you in a direction and then give guidance or even question you instead of just telling you the answer.
- gonehome 4y ago
  The most effective learning is when you try it yourself, but can also get immediate feedback and explanation. It’s doing the problem set, but also being able to check the key. Basically a private tutor or TA available at all times. Without that you can’t get a tight feedback loop. The most effective use of these systems will not be copying the answer, it’ll be trying to do it and then asking when stuck.
  - IanCal 4y ago
    The khan academy approach is right imo. You just tell the models that they should help you through the problem rather than answer it for you.
Scubabear68 4y ago
This is true for autodidacts. I am one, and the same is true for me. It is absolutely not true for most people. Most people need a human guide to show them the way. I am living this now with my two kids, both of whom need instruction (and also help from mom and dad).
- pksebben 4y ago
  That's kinda what it looks like we'll be able to make these models do, though. The tech is young still. All those erroneous hallucinations and patent lying (which are admittedly very present in the current crop) may well be managed soon enough - then all it takes is getting it to talk (solved), listen (solved), and provide some kind of direction / steering (not quite solved). With all that, you can have a guidance counselor for everyone. Caveat, of course, this is an extreme power tool vis a vis human development, and as such, can do just as much harm as good depending on it's use. This is why it's so damn important that we keep this stuff open source - if it's behind walled gardens, you end up with _actual, real shadowy cabals effortlessly manipulating all of everybody_, a thing that you may or may not be convinced exists already but guaranteed under those circumstances.

Avicebron 4y ago

There is something to be said about struggling through learning difficult material on your own, and the sense of accomplishment/retention that it instills. I started programming a few years after you and there was a similarly difficult learning curve in sourcing the materials, setting up my own environment, and making progress on your own. My little brother is doing some form of machine learning in grad school currently and when I saw him last around when ChatGPT was starting to become a mainstream talking point we discussed a lot about how immediately going to something that can answer a question (e.g. how do i write code that does X) is tempting but, can be a bit dangerous when we offload our own ability to reason through something to an external entity. Shouldn't we be fostering thinking patterns that allow for creativity and innovation when given very little, versus fostering a sense of "oh I can always get the right answer to a question whenever I need it. So why bother with building a general mental problem solving framework for myself"?

chatmasta 4y ago
You could have made that same argument about memory and recall skills prior to search engines. But I'm not sure anyone is now arguing search engines have been detrimental to working intelligence.
- FrojoS 4y ago
  Plenty of people are arguing that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_Google_Making_Us_Stupid%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_Google_Making_Us_Stupid%3F https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/306868/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-goog...
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  I pretty much skated through college on my ability to remember trivial facts because this is what the classes I took graded on. Does anyone care that the head of the art history department did his phd on Picasso, taught two full semester courses on him and I know more about Picasso’s life than probably 99.9% of the general population? Doubtful… But I do know things that never made it into the search engines (I’ve looked) and this knowledge is locked up in a (probably) retired professor and the few percent of students who actually listened to his lectures twenty-something years ago. Now everyone assumes that if it isn’t in google it doesn’t exist and have very little idea how to find information outside of what’s contained in its “record of all things”.
- StrangeATractor 4y ago
  They actually have studies that show people consistently score lower on IQ tests when they know their phone is in the same room as them.
fauigerzigerk 4y ago
>There is something to be said about struggling through learning difficult material on your own Depends on what the difficulty is. I remember when I started to learn programming back in 1991, I was learning from books. These books were very expensive and I could only afford a few of them. I didn't have access to a library because I wasn't in any school or university. I was a musician with a side job at a theatre box office. My main problem was that many of the explanations and examples in my programming books left some questions unanswered. It was even worse with maths, which I also tried to learn at the time. I got stuck a lot. If I'd had access to something like stackoverflow or Google, I could have progressed much much faster. I do think that getting stuck and being forced to figure something out the hard way is sometimes useful. But more often than not I didn't get stuck because the material was actually difficult or because I was solving difficult problems. I got stuck because the one and only explanation available to me was imprecise or incomplete. All I needed was the same thing explained with slightly different words to clear up my misunderstandings. On the whole I think learning these things today is immeasurably more productive. People are a lot less dependent on luck or money. You don't need to be one of the lucky few who has access to good teachers. You don't have to buy expensive books. Everyone has access to excellent online tutorials, documentation, source code and to thousands of competent professionals willing to help for free. It's absolute heaven. Back then it was hell.

themaninthedark 4y ago

Is asking and getting answers how to learn? Think about most of the stuff you have really learnt over the course of your life, was it from sitting in a classroom with information being spoon-fed to you, from reading a Wikipedia article? Or was it because you had to search hard for the information, try and fail before you succeeded? My bet is that your learning comes from the lather not the former. Good teachers that I have had would point you in a direction and then give guidance or even question you instead of just telling you the answer.

gonehome 4y ago
The most effective learning is when you try it yourself, but can also get immediate feedback and explanation. It’s doing the problem set, but also being able to check the key. Basically a private tutor or TA available at all times. Without that you can’t get a tight feedback loop. The most effective use of these systems will not be copying the answer, it’ll be trying to do it and then asking when stuck.
- IanCal 4y ago
  The khan academy approach is right imo. You just tell the models that they should help you through the problem rather than answer it for you.

Scubabear68 4y ago

This is true for autodidacts. I am one, and the same is true for me. It is absolutely not true for most people. Most people need a human guide to show them the way. I am living this now with my two kids, both of whom need instruction (and also help from mom and dad).

pksebben 4y ago
That's kinda what it looks like we'll be able to make these models do, though. The tech is young still. All those erroneous hallucinations and patent lying (which are admittedly very present in the current crop) may well be managed soon enough - then all it takes is getting it to talk (solved), listen (solved), and provide some kind of direction / steering (not quite solved). With all that, you can have a guidance counselor for everyone. Caveat, of course, this is an extreme power tool vis a vis human development, and as such, can do just as much harm as good depending on it's use. This is why it's so damn important that we keep this stuff open source - if it's behind walled gardens, you end up with _actual, real shadowy cabals effortlessly manipulating all of everybody_, a thing that you may or may not be convinced exists already but guaranteed under those circumstances.