3 ms·

I don't think "the Russians" actually said that. Maybe you should use a different example, like when the US lied at the United Nations about WMDs in Iraq.

by D_Alex 4y ago

SenHeng 4y ago
> Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov made headlines over the weekend when his claim the Ukraine war was “launched against” Russia provoked laughter from the audience during a forum in India. But I was in the room and can report he also received applause and indifference. https://theconversation.com/russias-foreign-minister-got-laughter-cheers-and-shrugs-in-india-outrage-over-the-war-isnt-universal-201163 https://theconversation.com/russias-foreign-minister-got-lau...
vel0city 4y ago
Putin absolutely used language suggesting these actions were defensive against "fundamental threats" and in reaction to "the military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border". Putin puts the war against Ukraine as "a matter of life and death, a matter of our historical future as a nation" and a threat "to the very existence of our state and to its sovereignty." He even literally states "we are acting to defend ourselves." Putin himself has absolutely, 100%, without question, very publicly stated they needed to go to war against Ukraine to defend themselves against Western aggression. He absolutely framed it as a completely defensive action. Those words aren't some misquote or mistranslation or taken out of context, they're hosted on the Kremlin's website. I guess you don't consider Putin to be a Russian? http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843 https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/markup/putin-speech-ukraine-war/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/markup... Please quit spreading lies.
- D_Alex 4y ago
  You are implying that "Western aggression" is the same as "Ukrainian aggression". They are not. Please quit gaslighting.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    "The purpose of this operation is to protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime." - Putin, from the links above. Please read them before arguing what Putin has or has not said. Who is the Kyiv regime? I guess to you they're not Ukrainians. Who's gaslighting, the person literally quoting what Putin says, or the one essentially arguing Putin isn't a Russian and the Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian? The current Kyiv Regime == Western, to Putin. So "defending against Western aggression" is "defending against Kyiv regime" is "defending against Ukraine." Please quit spreading lies.
    - D_Alex 4y ago
      >Who's gaslighting You are. You are continuing to imply that "Western" and "Ukrainian" are the same to Putin. While in your links, which I read, right near the top, there is a statement about "the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border." Maybe read the whole thing again. And please stop your gaslighting already.
      - vel0city 4y ago
        So the regime in Kyiv isn't Ukrainian, it's "Western". Got it. Makes total sense. And to defend against the Western world, they need to shell checks notes dozens of Ukrainian cities, which were controlled by the government in Kyiv. Right. Which isn't Ukrainian, it's "Western", which are definitely two different things. Huh. I'm quite confused by how you've twisted things. Is they Kyiv regime Ukranian or not? Is Ukraine Western or not? Did they have to defend themselves from Western world? Did they have to defend themselves from Ukraine? Are those really separate? Isn't saying they had to defend against the Western world and the Kyiv regime acknowledging they're one in the same? I'd love if you'd spell out what you really think about the topic.
        D_Alex 4y ago
dragonwriter 4y ago
> I don’t think “the Russians” actually said that. As well as the broader “NATO moving up to our doorstep” justification, the more specific (as to timing) “Ukraine shelling and moving troops to prepare to follow up the shelling with a massive ground offensive against the DPR/LPR” excuse is regularly used by both Russian official sources and Russian proxies.
- D_Alex 4y ago
  Hmm... You are equating responding to a "massive ground offensive against the DPR/LPR" with Russians "defending themselves against Ukrainian aggression". Are you implying that DPR/LNR are Russian?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Are you implying that DPR/LNR are Russian? Russia has described them as Russian by identity and allegiance and responsibility of the R.F., even if not juridically (and has since purported to annex them juridically, as well.) Putin also cited direct military threat by Ukraine to Russia generally (including nuclear threat), and invasion threat to “Russian” Crimea specifically, in his speech coinciding with the opening of the 2022 invasion.
    - D_Alex 4y ago
      Man, there is some heavy semantic distortion happening in this subthread. To make sense of the NATO narrative: "Western" = "Ukrainian" "DNR/LNR" = "Russia" "Threat" = "aggression" Next, we will be "warmongering" = "peacemaking". Oh wait, this is already a thing. Along with "ignorance" = "strength".
      - vel0city 4y ago
        DNR/LNR isn't in Russia though, it's Ukraine according to treaties Russia agreed to. Same thing with Crimea. Next thing I know you're going to tell me Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia is a real, sovereign country and totally not just Russia invading a neighbor.

I don't think "the Russians" actually said that. Maybe you should use a different example, like when the US lied at the United Nations about WMDs in Iraq.

by D_Alex 4y ago

I don't think "the Russians" actually said that. Maybe you should use a different example, like when the US lied at the United Nations about WMDs in Iraq.

SenHeng 4y ago

> Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov made headlines over the weekend when his claim the Ukraine war was “launched against” Russia provoked laughter from the audience during a forum in India. But I was in the room and can report he also received applause and indifference. https://theconversation.com/russias-foreign-minister-got-laughter-cheers-and-shrugs-in-india-outrage-over-the-war-isnt-universal-201163 https://theconversation.com/russias-foreign-minister-got-lau...

vel0city 4y ago

Putin absolutely used language suggesting these actions were defensive against "fundamental threats" and in reaction to "the military machine is moving and, as I said, is approaching our very border". Putin puts the war against Ukraine as "a matter of life and death, a matter of our historical future as a nation" and a threat "to the very existence of our state and to its sovereignty." He even literally states "we are acting to defend ourselves." Putin himself has absolutely, 100%, without question, very publicly stated they needed to go to war against Ukraine to defend themselves against Western aggression. He absolutely framed it as a completely defensive action. Those words aren't some misquote or mistranslation or taken out of context, they're hosted on the Kremlin's website. I guess you don't consider Putin to be a Russian? http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843 https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/markup/putin-speech-ukraine-war/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/markup... Please quit spreading lies.

D_Alex 4y ago
You are implying that "Western aggression" is the same as "Ukrainian aggression". They are not. Please quit gaslighting.
- vel0city 4y ago
  "The purpose of this operation is to protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime." - Putin, from the links above. Please read them before arguing what Putin has or has not said. Who is the Kyiv regime? I guess to you they're not Ukrainians. Who's gaslighting, the person literally quoting what Putin says, or the one essentially arguing Putin isn't a Russian and the Kyiv regime isn't Ukranian? The current Kyiv Regime == Western, to Putin. So "defending against Western aggression" is "defending against Kyiv regime" is "defending against Ukraine." Please quit spreading lies.
  - D_Alex 4y ago
    >Who's gaslighting You are. You are continuing to imply that "Western" and "Ukrainian" are the same to Putin. While in your links, which I read, right near the top, there is a statement about "the fundamental threats which irresponsible Western politicians created for Russia consistently, rudely and unceremoniously from year to year. I am referring to the eastward expansion of NATO, which is moving its military infrastructure ever closer to the Russian border." Maybe read the whole thing again. And please stop your gaslighting already.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      So the regime in Kyiv isn't Ukrainian, it's "Western". Got it. Makes total sense. And to defend against the Western world, they need to shell checks notes dozens of Ukrainian cities, which were controlled by the government in Kyiv. Right. Which isn't Ukrainian, it's "Western", which are definitely two different things. Huh. I'm quite confused by how you've twisted things. Is they Kyiv regime Ukranian or not? Is Ukraine Western or not? Did they have to defend themselves from Western world? Did they have to defend themselves from Ukraine? Are those really separate? Isn't saying they had to defend against the Western world and the Kyiv regime acknowledging they're one in the same? I'd love if you'd spell out what you really think about the topic.
      - D_Alex 4y ago

dragonwriter 4y ago

> I don’t think “the Russians” actually said that. As well as the broader “NATO moving up to our doorstep” justification, the more specific (as to timing) “Ukraine shelling and moving troops to prepare to follow up the shelling with a massive ground offensive against the DPR/LPR” excuse is regularly used by both Russian official sources and Russian proxies.

D_Alex 4y ago
Hmm... You are equating responding to a "massive ground offensive against the DPR/LPR" with Russians "defending themselves against Ukrainian aggression". Are you implying that DPR/LNR are Russian?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Are you implying that DPR/LNR are Russian? Russia has described them as Russian by identity and allegiance and responsibility of the R.F., even if not juridically (and has since purported to annex them juridically, as well.) Putin also cited direct military threat by Ukraine to Russia generally (including nuclear threat), and invasion threat to “Russian” Crimea specifically, in his speech coinciding with the opening of the 2022 invasion.
  - D_Alex 4y ago
    Man, there is some heavy semantic distortion happening in this subthread. To make sense of the NATO narrative: "Western" = "Ukrainian" "DNR/LNR" = "Russia" "Threat" = "aggression" Next, we will be "warmongering" = "peacemaking". Oh wait, this is already a thing. Along with "ignorance" = "strength".
    - vel0city 4y ago
      DNR/LNR isn't in Russia though, it's Ukraine according to treaties Russia agreed to. Same thing with Crimea. Next thing I know you're going to tell me Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia is a real, sovereign country and totally not just Russia invading a neighbor.