3 ms·

I assume both examples would run at indiscernible speeds on modern hardware. How about more complex scenes? Are poly calculations more expensive than map ones?

by V__ 4y ago

bluescrn 4y ago
Per-pixel lighting (with a normal map) is generally more expensive than per-vertex lighting (without). But when using normal maps, you've usually got less vertices to deal with, which helps. And modern GPUs are plenty fast enough to do quite a bit of work per pixel, at least until the pixel count gets silly (resolutions of 4K and beyond), hence all the work going into AI upscaling systems. (But the first coin image is from Super Mario Galaxy, a Wii game, and the Wii had a rather more limited GPU with a fixed-function pipeline rather than fully-programmable shaders)
- mewse 4y ago
  The Wii (like the GameCube) was weird. It was more than fixed-function, but less than fully-programmable; you'd basically assemble a simple "pixel shader" by clicking together up to 16 operations from a hardcoded list, using up to 8 textures. ('TEV Stages' is the term to Google if you want the gory technical details) If you were coming to it from the PS2 (like I was), it was super-freeing and amazing and so much more flexible and powerful than anything you were used to. But if you were coming to it from the Xbox (like many of my co-workers were) it was more like suddenly being handcuffed.
  - royjacobs 4y ago
    This reminds me of very early pixel shaders, which could only consist of about 6 assembly instructions.
capableweb 4y ago
It would reduce the number of draw calls and increase the performance of rendering, as it's simpler to render textures than polygons. Although I think you wouldn't be able to use the same method for everything, as you'd use more vram when using textures for the effect rather than polygons. But for the case of something like coins in a Mario game, I guess it makes sense. As always, what is the right approach depends. If you want to run the game in a very memory constrained environment (early game consoles), the approach of using polygons might make more sense. But nowadays we have plenty of vram and if the entity is used a lot, 1 texture for 100s of entities makes it a worthwhile tradeoff. Edit: thank you for the corrections, I'm not heavily into game programming/rendering but am familiar with 3D/animation software, but the internals of rendering is really not my specialty so I appreciate being corrected. Cunningham's Law to the rescue yet again :)
- codeflo 4y ago
  > It would reduce the number of draw calls That hasn't been true for many years. > as you'd use more vram when using textures For the equivalent amount of detail, not really. Vertices are expensive, normal maps are encoded very compactly.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > That hasn't been true for many years. This is a game from 2007, 16 years ago (and its development would have started in 2005), so that it has not been true for many years is not a useful assertion even if true. Or worse, it confirms that it used to be an issue, and thus may well have affected a game created “many years ago”.
- cypress66 4y ago
  Draw calls is the same. The amount of tris does not affect the draw call count.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
codeflo 4y ago
There are lots of subtleties about static vs. dynamic geometry, instancing and so forth, but to summarize, yes: In general, normal maps are cheaper than the equivalent additional geometry would be, by a lot. They are also higher quality for the same computational budget, because you get high quality anti-aliasing essentially for free. Now, you are right that this might not matter much if you only consider coins in particular. But everything in a level wants to have additional surface details. The ability to have normal maps everywhere was a huge part of the jump in visual quality a couple of console generations ago.
- DubiousPusher 4y ago
  If I had to make a guess, I would say that this change was made for reasons totally unrelated to performance. First, modern GPUs are capable of handling millions of triangles with ease. Games are almost never vertex bound. They are usually pixel bound or bound by locking. In other words, too many or too costly of pixel operations are in use or there is some poor coordination between the CPU and GPU where the CPU gets stuck waiting for the GPU or the GPU is underutilized at certain times and then over burdened other times. Adding two maps adds two texture fetches and possibly some blending calculations. It's very hard to weigh the comparable impact because different situations have a huge impact on which code gets executed. For a model with many triangles, the word case scenario is seeing the side of the model with the most faces. This will cause the most triangles to pass the winding test, occlusion tests, frustum tests, etc. This will be relatively the same regardless of how close the coin is to the camera. For the normal mapped test, the worst case scenario is when the coin fills the view regardless of its orientation. This is because the triangles will then be rasterizied across the entire screen resulting in a coin material calculation and therefore the additional fetches for every pixel of the screen. Also, when it comes to quality, normal maps have a tendency to break down at views of high angular incidence. This is because though the lighting behaves as expected, it becomes clear that parts of the model aren't sticking up and occluding the coin. This means such maps are a poor solution for things like walls on long hallways where the view is expected to be almost perpendicular to the wall surfaces most of the time. There is a solution called Parallax Occlusion Mapping. Though it is expensive and I don't see it in a lot of games.
dorkwood 4y ago
I think another benefit of using normal maps that no one is mentioning is that you get significantly less aliasing due to mipmapping and interpolation in the fragment shader. You can model all the same detail into the mesh, but it will often still look worse than the normal map approach. So I don’t think it’s necessarily a purely performance-oriented decision.
- wlesieutre 4y ago
  Normal mapping is cool but parallax occlusion mapping is some real wizardry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_occlusion_mapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_occlusion_mapping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5IatsFXHk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5IatsFXHk You'd have a bad time including all of that in the actual model.
jeffbee 4y ago
The Switch does not contain modern hardware, though. It has, viewed from the year 2023, a ten-year-old low-end smartphone CPU and what amounts to a GeForce 830M. This is consistent with Nintendo's past strategy. The Wii, when it was launched, was similar to a 10-year-old PowerBook G3, in a white box.
- kijiki 4y ago
  > The Wii, when it was launched, was similar to a 10-year-old PowerBook G3, in a white box. True for the CPU, but quite unfair to the Wii's ArtX GPU, which was substantially faster and more featureful than the ATI r128 in the PB G3.

I assume both examples would run at indiscernible speeds on modern hardware. How about more complex scenes? Are poly calculations more expensive than map ones?

by V__ 4y ago

I assume both examples would run at indiscernible speeds on modern hardware. How about more complex scenes? Are poly calculations more expensive than map ones?

bluescrn 4y ago

Per-pixel lighting (with a normal map) is generally more expensive than per-vertex lighting (without). But when using normal maps, you've usually got less vertices to deal with, which helps. And modern GPUs are plenty fast enough to do quite a bit of work per pixel, at least until the pixel count gets silly (resolutions of 4K and beyond), hence all the work going into AI upscaling systems. (But the first coin image is from Super Mario Galaxy, a Wii game, and the Wii had a rather more limited GPU with a fixed-function pipeline rather than fully-programmable shaders)

mewse 4y ago
The Wii (like the GameCube) was weird. It was more than fixed-function, but less than fully-programmable; you'd basically assemble a simple "pixel shader" by clicking together up to 16 operations from a hardcoded list, using up to 8 textures. ('TEV Stages' is the term to Google if you want the gory technical details) If you were coming to it from the PS2 (like I was), it was super-freeing and amazing and so much more flexible and powerful than anything you were used to. But if you were coming to it from the Xbox (like many of my co-workers were) it was more like suddenly being handcuffed.
- royjacobs 4y ago
  This reminds me of very early pixel shaders, which could only consist of about 6 assembly instructions.

capableweb 4y ago

It would reduce the number of draw calls and increase the performance of rendering, as it's simpler to render textures than polygons. Although I think you wouldn't be able to use the same method for everything, as you'd use more vram when using textures for the effect rather than polygons. But for the case of something like coins in a Mario game, I guess it makes sense. As always, what is the right approach depends. If you want to run the game in a very memory constrained environment (early game consoles), the approach of using polygons might make more sense. But nowadays we have plenty of vram and if the entity is used a lot, 1 texture for 100s of entities makes it a worthwhile tradeoff. Edit: thank you for the corrections, I'm not heavily into game programming/rendering but am familiar with 3D/animation software, but the internals of rendering is really not my specialty so I appreciate being corrected. Cunningham's Law to the rescue yet again :)

codeflo 4y ago
> It would reduce the number of draw calls That hasn't been true for many years. > as you'd use more vram when using textures For the equivalent amount of detail, not really. Vertices are expensive, normal maps are encoded very compactly.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > That hasn't been true for many years. This is a game from 2007, 16 years ago (and its development would have started in 2005), so that it has not been true for many years is not a useful assertion even if true. Or worse, it confirms that it used to be an issue, and thus may well have affected a game created “many years ago”.
cypress66 4y ago
Draw calls is the same. The amount of tris does not affect the draw call count.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

codeflo 4y ago

There are lots of subtleties about static vs. dynamic geometry, instancing and so forth, but to summarize, yes: In general, normal maps are cheaper than the equivalent additional geometry would be, by a lot. They are also higher quality for the same computational budget, because you get high quality anti-aliasing essentially for free. Now, you are right that this might not matter much if you only consider coins in particular. But everything in a level wants to have additional surface details. The ability to have normal maps everywhere was a huge part of the jump in visual quality a couple of console generations ago.

DubiousPusher 4y ago
If I had to make a guess, I would say that this change was made for reasons totally unrelated to performance. First, modern GPUs are capable of handling millions of triangles with ease. Games are almost never vertex bound. They are usually pixel bound or bound by locking. In other words, too many or too costly of pixel operations are in use or there is some poor coordination between the CPU and GPU where the CPU gets stuck waiting for the GPU or the GPU is underutilized at certain times and then over burdened other times. Adding two maps adds two texture fetches and possibly some blending calculations. It's very hard to weigh the comparable impact because different situations have a huge impact on which code gets executed. For a model with many triangles, the word case scenario is seeing the side of the model with the most faces. This will cause the most triangles to pass the winding test, occlusion tests, frustum tests, etc. This will be relatively the same regardless of how close the coin is to the camera. For the normal mapped test, the worst case scenario is when the coin fills the view regardless of its orientation. This is because the triangles will then be rasterizied across the entire screen resulting in a coin material calculation and therefore the additional fetches for every pixel of the screen. Also, when it comes to quality, normal maps have a tendency to break down at views of high angular incidence. This is because though the lighting behaves as expected, it becomes clear that parts of the model aren't sticking up and occluding the coin. This means such maps are a poor solution for things like walls on long hallways where the view is expected to be almost perpendicular to the wall surfaces most of the time. There is a solution called Parallax Occlusion Mapping. Though it is expensive and I don't see it in a lot of games.

dorkwood 4y ago

I think another benefit of using normal maps that no one is mentioning is that you get significantly less aliasing due to mipmapping and interpolation in the fragment shader. You can model all the same detail into the mesh, but it will often still look worse than the normal map approach. So I don’t think it’s necessarily a purely performance-oriented decision.

wlesieutre 4y ago
Normal mapping is cool but parallax occlusion mapping is some real wizardry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_occlusion_mapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_occlusion_mapping https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5IatsFXHk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5IatsFXHk You'd have a bad time including all of that in the actual model.

jeffbee 4y ago

The Switch does not contain modern hardware, though. It has, viewed from the year 2023, a ten-year-old low-end smartphone CPU and what amounts to a GeForce 830M. This is consistent with Nintendo's past strategy. The Wii, when it was launched, was similar to a 10-year-old PowerBook G3, in a white box.

kijiki 4y ago
> The Wii, when it was launched, was similar to a 10-year-old PowerBook G3, in a white box. True for the CPU, but quite unfair to the Wii's ArtX GPU, which was substantially faster and more featureful than the ATI r128 in the PB G3.