4 ms·

> I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. I've noticed something with boot camp programmers too. Something that may have changed

> I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. I've noticed something with boot camp programmers too. Something that may have changed is that newer graduates may have studied programming because "it pays well", and not because they were computer hobbyists before deciding what to study. I've been on meetings with some programmers that didn't know how to use a gui ftp client or how to manually upload a file to a server. Because most of that stuff is abstracted now.

JoachimS 4y ago
Just like many other types of higher education. Doctors, Lawyers etc. A CS, CE, EE degree is for many the first step on a career path. In many cultures becoming an doctor, lawyer, engineer is something to strive for. It is an upstanding position and is well payed. Too bad being a teacher seems not to be like that anymore in many western countries. We here at HN are quite probably not the norm. Being hobbyists that have been tinkering with computers since early childhood should not be a requirement to become a programmer. If it were, the industry would not be able to scale as it has. There are simply too few of us in the human population.
sideshowb 4y ago
> newer graduates may have studied programming because "it pays well", Define new. Programming has been known to pay well since at least the 1990s.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  There's a big gap between making early career choices and them materializing, also, information dissemination is slow and uneven. > Programming has been known to pay well since at least the 1990s. Known by whom? The median family in 1990 wouldn't even consider that programming as a career exists, much less that it pays well. At the dot-com boom in late 1990s, the adults would know that, but it wouldn't yet be "culturally assimilated" for the masses in the way the assumption about doctors and lawyers income was; and then you get the dot-com bust. I'd say that the time when the median high-schooler get told by all reasonable adults that "programming is a sure way to money for anyone, not just for weird geeks" doesn't arrive until 2000+ or even later; and from that time it takes ~10 years for that generation of kids to pass through school, college and fill the companies in great numbers.
  - sideshowb 4y ago
    This is a good point, programming was known to pay well, but you're right it was seen as for nerds only in the 90s. My parents were even a little worried about me taking compsci because they thought I wasn't nerdy enough to compete! Glad I didn't listen.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  I went to college for a big chunk of the 90s, liked to fiddle with computers and didn’t know programming paid well. In fact I didn’t know much at all about computer science other than some prerequisite class I was bored out of my mind in.
  - sideshowb 4y ago
    That's because you were obviously interested in programming, not money (yay). Gates was, however, on the Forbes rich list since the late 80s, and richest person in the world from 1995, so I find it hard to believe anybody really money-driven wouldn't have known this at the time.
oytis 4y ago
It's been a while since I've last used FTP, so it might be just a generational thing. I for one have no idea how to connect to a BBS.
maccard 4y ago
> I've been on meetings with some programmers that didn't know how to use a gui ftp client or how to manually upload a file to a server. Because most of that stuff is abstracted now. I would consider myself a decent programmer I have a masters degree, and have a deep technical understanding of multiple areas. I've plenty of experience and have shipped successful products. I've never (not once) in my life used a GUI ftp client, and I can futz my way around an SCP command to shuffle a file around if I need to. I can make the same argument against someone who refused to use a new development environment because they understand how their compiler works under the hood. Just because someone doesn't know something that you know doesn't mean that you're better than them, it means you're different. Personally, i would rather have someone on my team who understands how to extract logs from cloudwatch/datadog/new relic than someone who insists our VPN solution has FTP access to our servers.
watwut 4y ago
Last time I used ftp was years and years ago. I really dont think newbies should be expected to know it. Also, it is ok and to be expected for fresh graduates to have only knowledge in most important areas for them. Even people who want to learn a lot more then necessary are better off focusing on learning more in the immediate area they will actually use at first.

JoachimS 4y ago

Just like many other types of higher education. Doctors, Lawyers etc. A CS, CE, EE degree is for many the first step on a career path. In many cultures becoming an doctor, lawyer, engineer is something to strive for. It is an upstanding position and is well payed. Too bad being a teacher seems not to be like that anymore in many western countries. We here at HN are quite probably not the norm. Being hobbyists that have been tinkering with computers since early childhood should not be a requirement to become a programmer. If it were, the industry would not be able to scale as it has. There are simply too few of us in the human population.

sideshowb 4y ago

> newer graduates may have studied programming because "it pays well", Define new. Programming has been known to pay well since at least the 1990s.

PeterisP 4y ago
There's a big gap between making early career choices and them materializing, also, information dissemination is slow and uneven. > Programming has been known to pay well since at least the 1990s. Known by whom? The median family in 1990 wouldn't even consider that programming as a career exists, much less that it pays well. At the dot-com boom in late 1990s, the adults would know that, but it wouldn't yet be "culturally assimilated" for the masses in the way the assumption about doctors and lawyers income was; and then you get the dot-com bust. I'd say that the time when the median high-schooler get told by all reasonable adults that "programming is a sure way to money for anyone, not just for weird geeks" doesn't arrive until 2000+ or even later; and from that time it takes ~10 years for that generation of kids to pass through school, college and fill the companies in great numbers.
- sideshowb 4y ago
  This is a good point, programming was known to pay well, but you're right it was seen as for nerds only in the 90s. My parents were even a little worried about me taking compsci because they thought I wasn't nerdy enough to compete! Glad I didn't listen.
UncleEntity 4y ago
I went to college for a big chunk of the 90s, liked to fiddle with computers and didn’t know programming paid well. In fact I didn’t know much at all about computer science other than some prerequisite class I was bored out of my mind in.
- sideshowb 4y ago
  That's because you were obviously interested in programming, not money (yay). Gates was, however, on the Forbes rich list since the late 80s, and richest person in the world from 1995, so I find it hard to believe anybody really money-driven wouldn't have known this at the time.

oytis 4y ago

It's been a while since I've last used FTP, so it might be just a generational thing. I for one have no idea how to connect to a BBS.

maccard 4y ago

> I've been on meetings with some programmers that didn't know how to use a gui ftp client or how to manually upload a file to a server. Because most of that stuff is abstracted now. I would consider myself a decent programmer I have a masters degree, and have a deep technical understanding of multiple areas. I've plenty of experience and have shipped successful products. I've never (not once) in my life used a GUI ftp client, and I can futz my way around an SCP command to shuffle a file around if I need to. I can make the same argument against someone who refused to use a new development environment because they understand how their compiler works under the hood. Just because someone doesn't know something that you know doesn't mean that you're better than them, it means you're different. Personally, i would rather have someone on my team who understands how to extract logs from cloudwatch/datadog/new relic than someone who insists our VPN solution has FTP access to our servers.

watwut 4y ago

Last time I used ftp was years and years ago. I really dont think newbies should be expected to know it. Also, it is ok and to be expected for fresh graduates to have only knowledge in most important areas for them. Even people who want to learn a lot more then necessary are better off focusing on learning more in the immediate area they will actually use at first.