8 ms·

Just a few weeks ago there was a big power outage that lasted 24 hours because of a storm. I'm glad I have a gas stove because I could still cook and prevent fo

by proc0 4y ago

Just a few weeks ago there was a big power outage that lasted 24 hours because of a storm. I'm glad I have a gas stove because I could still cook and prevent food from spoiling. Making everything dependent on the power grid is just putting more strain on an already unreliable infrastructure. I don't think politicians are thinking clearly about this. They seem to want net-zero energy at any cost, even if it means people will suffer. Meanwhile we can't control what other countries do so it might not even make a difference anyway.

CameronNemo 4y ago
They seem to want net-zero energy at any cost This is about indoor air quality too, though.
adamredwoods 4y ago
By 2030, and only applies to heating. I hope by then, we begin to have efficient home-energy storage solutions, for the purposes of outages.
giarc 4y ago
Your gas stove isn't a heating appliance and therefore is probably exempt. "In a vote held late Wednesday, the board of directors of the Bay Area Air Quality Management District (BAAQMD) adopted rules that will require new water heaters and furnaces to have zero emissions of nitrogen oxides, or NOx."
- mercyandgrace 4y ago
  Looks like the AVG low in the Bay Area is about 45? I suppose that isn't that cold, however, in the event of an extended electrical outage, those with gas appliances can still heat their homes. Those without cannot. I think the merit of the parent comment still stands. I live in New England and utilize heating oil primarily. Even that won't work without electricity.
  - fsh 4y ago
    A forced air gas furnace doesn't work without electricity.
    - brocklobsta 4y ago
      True, but I could run my gas heat with a portable generator. Most of my neighbors with electric heat could not. Same with my pellet stove, it requires power for the auger and blower, but significantly less than an all electric system. I think the right thing to do is to ensure the public is aware of the tradeoff and if indoor air quality is a concern, then ensure proper ventilation in the building code. I worry about going all in on electric when reliability is not robust.
    - mercyandgrace 4y ago
      Very true. But that is not the only alternative gas heating appliance available either.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    My furnace doesn't run if the electricity is off. The fan needs electricity. The safety circuits in the furnace need electricity. If we want to talk about power outages causing loss of life due to freezing then we can talk about that problem. But I'm pretty confident that "put today's gas furnaces in everybody's home" is the appropriate way of attacking that problem. Especially in a place like the bay area where you just aren't seeing 10 degree lows.
    - schiffern 4y ago
      When they said "those with gas appliances can still heat their homes," I assume they meant using the gas stove as a contigency heat source. Recommended? Of course not. But a lot of (especially rural propane) users do it to avoid freezing pipes and people. SF maybe not so much, but in climates where you can literally die without heat (often because you're simultaneously "snowed in"), you really really want dissimilar redundancy. (obviously NEVER heat with a stove, because as we all know you'll burn down your house and/or asphyxiate from carbon monoxide)
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  It's part of a bigger movement away from gas, eg. https://barc.ca.gov/whats-happening/news/berkeley-becomes-first-us-city-ban-natural-gas-connections-new-buildings https://barc.ca.gov/whats-happening/news/berkeley-becomes-fi... It seems like a big deal to me to go from two redundant energy sources to one without discussing the trade offs in resiliency. I agree with OP, that there will be a large of human cost to giving up gas heat without making a corresponding investment in the reliability of the electric grid (which I have never seen mentioned). My impression is that the total cost to the decision to phase out gas has not been crunched. Pushing it to individuals to be prepared for electric grid failure is pretty bad for carbon and pollution. All those generators (and other emergency backup appliances) manufactured and maintained. I personally prefer having gas and electric, I feel that gives me adequate reliability, so I don't need to own a generator: I have my gas heat (millivolt pilot generator requires no AC power), gas hot water, candles, and flashlights. And I like not owning a generator (or emergency propane heater (aren't these commonly implicated in structure fires? [0]), etc). Plus many people can't afford generators. [0] https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/US-Fire-Problem/Heating-equipment https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-too...
- proc0 4y ago
  Now that you mention it, I also have a gas stove and that day the temp. was in the 30's. I was still able to stay warm at night. So it's the same problem.
pacetherace 4y ago
You are describing an emergency scenario. Everyone should be prepared for emergencies but I don't think having a gas furnace or stove should be part of that plan. Using them during a power outage can be extremely dangerous.
- bryceacc 4y ago
  why would using your gas stove during a power outage ever be dangerous?
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Because in a modern house you need positive ventilation to keep CO and CO2 levels healthy. And with no power, you may not be venting. Sure you know to open a window, but every year people die from not opening the window.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  There was a power outage in bay area, lasting for almost 2 days in certain parts, and the only thing that worked was our gas stove and a few gas based appliances. Can you share some alternatives we could have used to cook food?
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    I have a propane burner and propane heater that work off 1LB tanks. Those plus enough propane to last a week was less than $200. I also have a 2KW generator and stabilized gasoline. This is in response to the Feb 2021 Texas blackout.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      Ok, but how is that better than my existing gas appliance? If one is going to allow propane burners and heaters, why not allow gas ranges as well?
      - 4y ago
GloriousKoji 4y ago
A few weeks ago? HALF of Santa Clara County PG&E customers had no power a couple days ago. Yesterday was about 25% of all customers. As of right now it's about 10%.
- supportengineer 4y ago
  After two days, our power came on this morning at 6 AM. Currently, the power is out again.
yongjik 4y ago
> They seem to want net-zero energy at any cost, even if it means people will suffer. I think you misspelled "net zero carbon." And forget politicians, I want net zero carbon. Though I wouldn't exactly say "at any cost," I'm willing to pay more myself and see others suffer in order to get there. Because people will suffer more if we don't. I'm also getting increasingly skeptical of but-other-countries argument: America's chip war with China has demonstrated that nations are willing to cut off major trade partners if they decide it's a matter of national security. I'm giving less than ten years before carbon tariffs are everywhere.
- proc0 4y ago
  Yes thanks. I probably confused it with green energy. > I'm also getting increasingly skeptical of but-other-countries argument: America's chip war with China has demonstrated that nations are willing to cut off major trade partners if they decide it's a matter of national security. I'm giving less than ten years before carbon tariffs are everywhere. We're doing it at such a pace that 10 years is way too late. If we had the time we would do the tariffs at the same time in order to at least have everyone make the same sacrifices. Instead only a few hundred million people will make the sacrifices in vain while the rest of the world keeps burning coal. I hope the market pressures them sooner because green energy will be profitable. I'm not convinced banning energy sources like this is effective.

by proc0 4y ago

CameronNemo 4y ago

They seem to want net-zero energy at any cost This is about indoor air quality too, though.

adamredwoods 4y ago

By 2030, and only applies to heating. I hope by then, we begin to have efficient home-energy storage solutions, for the purposes of outages.

giarc 4y ago

Your gas stove isn't a heating appliance and therefore is probably exempt. "In a vote held late Wednesday, the board of directors of the Bay Area Air Quality Management District (BAAQMD) adopted rules that will require new water heaters and furnaces to have zero emissions of nitrogen oxides, or NOx."

mercyandgrace 4y ago
Looks like the AVG low in the Bay Area is about 45? I suppose that isn't that cold, however, in the event of an extended electrical outage, those with gas appliances can still heat their homes. Those without cannot. I think the merit of the parent comment still stands. I live in New England and utilize heating oil primarily. Even that won't work without electricity.
- fsh 4y ago
  A forced air gas furnace doesn't work without electricity.
  - brocklobsta 4y ago
    True, but I could run my gas heat with a portable generator. Most of my neighbors with electric heat could not. Same with my pellet stove, it requires power for the auger and blower, but significantly less than an all electric system. I think the right thing to do is to ensure the public is aware of the tradeoff and if indoor air quality is a concern, then ensure proper ventilation in the building code. I worry about going all in on electric when reliability is not robust.
  - mercyandgrace 4y ago
    Very true. But that is not the only alternative gas heating appliance available either.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  My furnace doesn't run if the electricity is off. The fan needs electricity. The safety circuits in the furnace need electricity. If we want to talk about power outages causing loss of life due to freezing then we can talk about that problem. But I'm pretty confident that "put today's gas furnaces in everybody's home" is the appropriate way of attacking that problem. Especially in a place like the bay area where you just aren't seeing 10 degree lows.
  - schiffern 4y ago
    When they said "those with gas appliances can still heat their homes," I assume they meant using the gas stove as a contigency heat source. Recommended? Of course not. But a lot of (especially rural propane) users do it to avoid freezing pipes and people. SF maybe not so much, but in climates where you can literally die without heat (often because you're simultaneously "snowed in"), you really really want dissimilar redundancy. (obviously NEVER heat with a stove, because as we all know you'll burn down your house and/or asphyxiate from carbon monoxide)
CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
It's part of a bigger movement away from gas, eg. https://barc.ca.gov/whats-happening/news/berkeley-becomes-first-us-city-ban-natural-gas-connections-new-buildings https://barc.ca.gov/whats-happening/news/berkeley-becomes-fi... It seems like a big deal to me to go from two redundant energy sources to one without discussing the trade offs in resiliency. I agree with OP, that there will be a large of human cost to giving up gas heat without making a corresponding investment in the reliability of the electric grid (which I have never seen mentioned). My impression is that the total cost to the decision to phase out gas has not been crunched. Pushing it to individuals to be prepared for electric grid failure is pretty bad for carbon and pollution. All those generators (and other emergency backup appliances) manufactured and maintained. I personally prefer having gas and electric, I feel that gives me adequate reliability, so I don't need to own a generator: I have my gas heat (millivolt pilot generator requires no AC power), gas hot water, candles, and flashlights. And I like not owning a generator (or emergency propane heater (aren't these commonly implicated in structure fires? [0]), etc). Plus many people can't afford generators. [0] https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/US-Fire-Problem/Heating-equipment https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-too...
proc0 4y ago
Now that you mention it, I also have a gas stove and that day the temp. was in the 30's. I was still able to stay warm at night. So it's the same problem.

pacetherace 4y ago

You are describing an emergency scenario. Everyone should be prepared for emergencies but I don't think having a gas furnace or stove should be part of that plan. Using them during a power outage can be extremely dangerous.

bryceacc 4y ago
why would using your gas stove during a power outage ever be dangerous?
- bombcar 4y ago
  Because in a modern house you need positive ventilation to keep CO and CO2 levels healthy. And with no power, you may not be venting. Sure you know to open a window, but every year people die from not opening the window.
RestlessMind 4y ago
There was a power outage in bay area, lasting for almost 2 days in certain parts, and the only thing that worked was our gas stove and a few gas based appliances. Can you share some alternatives we could have used to cook food?
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I have a propane burner and propane heater that work off 1LB tanks. Those plus enough propane to last a week was less than $200. I also have a 2KW generator and stabilized gasoline. This is in response to the Feb 2021 Texas blackout.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    Ok, but how is that better than my existing gas appliance? If one is going to allow propane burners and heaters, why not allow gas ranges as well?
    - 4y ago

GloriousKoji 4y ago

A few weeks ago? HALF of Santa Clara County PG&E customers had no power a couple days ago. Yesterday was about 25% of all customers. As of right now it's about 10%.

supportengineer 4y ago
After two days, our power came on this morning at 6 AM. Currently, the power is out again.

yongjik 4y ago

> They seem to want net-zero energy at any cost, even if it means people will suffer. I think you misspelled "net zero carbon." And forget politicians, I want net zero carbon. Though I wouldn't exactly say "at any cost," I'm willing to pay more myself and see others suffer in order to get there. Because people will suffer more if we don't. I'm also getting increasingly skeptical of but-other-countries argument: America's chip war with China has demonstrated that nations are willing to cut off major trade partners if they decide it's a matter of national security. I'm giving less than ten years before carbon tariffs are everywhere.

proc0 4y ago
Yes thanks. I probably confused it with green energy. > I'm also getting increasingly skeptical of but-other-countries argument: America's chip war with China has demonstrated that nations are willing to cut off major trade partners if they decide it's a matter of national security. I'm giving less than ten years before carbon tariffs are everywhere. We're doing it at such a pace that 10 years is way too late. If we had the time we would do the tariffs at the same time in order to at least have everyone make the same sacrifices. Instead only a few hundred million people will make the sacrifices in vain while the rest of the world keeps burning coal. I hope the market pressures them sooner because green energy will be profitable. I'm not convinced banning energy sources like this is effective.