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In my experience, at least with startups, non compete agreements are often pushed and drafted by the legal team of the entities investing in the business. Inve

In my experience, at least with startups, non compete agreements are often pushed and drafted by the legal team of the entities investing in the business. Investors want to be protected and their attorneys will do anything that's necessary to make sure there aren't loopholes left open for ideas to be stolen. The result is poorly drafted and ridiculously broad non compete clauses that would not be enforceable in most if not all states. However even when they may not be enforceable (and you will hear the hiring manager saying that 100 times), non competes can still hurt candidates big time once they go back to the job market because many companies actually have provisions to disqualify those coming in with the extra baggage of a non compete. If candidate A and B have very similar skills and experience and A has a non compete and B doesn't, why would anyone bother with A? So it is true, non competes are in most cases non enforceable but they can still reduce your chances of getting a (better) job. I declined offers after months of negotiations because of non competes and I would advise others to refuse to sign them, unless you desperately need the job, the compensation package is amazing or there are provisions or amendments to the clause, like a reasonable garden leave, that compensates you for having to carry a stinky non compete agreement on your forehead for an entire year or more if things don't work out. If they want the non compete, make them pay for it, don't pick up the tab yourself.

thwayunion 4y ago
> non competes can still hurt candidates big time once they go back to the job market because many companies actually have provisions to disqualify those coming in with the extra baggage of a non compete. Get a lawyer, ensure it's not enforcable, then sign it. If you're in CA, sign it. If you're in MA and there is no garden leave clause, sign it. Then do what you want. When a hiring company asks if you have a non-compete, specify: "I am not bound by an enforceable non-compete". If they ask for specifics, explain and mention the law firm you consulted. This has always worked for me. I suppose you could also just say you're not bound by a non-compete, and leave it at that, as that's also not a lie. If I sell myself into slavery in the USA, then I can -- without lying -- tell everyone I'm definitely not a slave. Because I'm definitely, absolutely, not. Non-competes are no different: if it's prime facie unenforceable, then you are NOT bound by a non-compete, full stop, end of story. But I like to be a bit more up-front. > If candidate A and B have very similar skills and experience and A has a non compete and B doesn't, why would anyone bother with A? I've admittedly never been in this situation -- at least as far as I know -- because my skill-set is pretty niche (ie, I am pretty sure that I have always known all the other people in the world who are interchangeable with me for a particular position when I get to the stage of negotiating the offer).
- cesarb 4y ago
  > Get a lawyer, ensure it's not enforcable, then sign it. If you're in CA, sign it. If you're in MA and there is no garden leave clause, sign it. Then do what you want. What if the law changes and now it's enforceable? What if you move to another USA state, or to another country, and it's enforceable there?
  - convolvatron 4y ago
    what if the people who hired you are total idiots and take you to court anyways?
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      Counter-sue for damages consisting of the total value of my foregone compensation package (which are typically 2-4 year packages). Triple real damages because enforcing a prime facie unenforceable contract is an unfair and deceptive business practice. I would be more than happy to be the test case for this novel theory. My strong suspicion is that no competent employer has the balls to do anything other than settle the counter-suit (less about the $ amount than the precedent), and my even stronger suspicion is that I'd win the triple damages if the poor sops in legal were desperate enough for a severance package to try and fight.
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    > What if the law changes and now it's enforceable? Before that happened, I'd remind my lawmaker of both my generous giving and also how valuable my personal time and network has been, relative to any campaign donation, in terms of winning and keeping the seat. If it happened anyways, I'd move my primary residence. > What if you move to another USA state, or to another country, and it's enforceable there? That's not how non-competes work in any US jurisdiction of which I'm aware. Even if it were: if a company wants my labor -- and enough do that I'm not concerned about finding takers -- then they have to hire me in a state where I'm comfortable with non-compete law. I don't care about in office vs remote, but I do care about non-compete law. Companies shop around jurisdictions. In-demand labor should as well.
fsckboy 4y ago
> Investors want to be protected and their attorneys will do anything that's necessary to make sure there aren't loopholes left open for ideas to be stolen. The result is poorly drafted and ridiculously broad non compete clauses that would not be enforceable in most if not all states. if the result is "poorly drafted and unenforceable", how can you say that they "made sure there aren't loopholes left open for ideas to be stolen"? makes zero sense.
- hnfong 4y ago
  Probably means "I don't like how broad the clauses are, so it's bad"...
pyuser583 4y ago
A day after starting my second big tech job, I had to fill out a form about “prior legal obligations.” I mentioned my prior employer made me sign a form similar to the one they had made me sign. An hou later I was pulled aside by the CFO, and quizzed about the tech I used at the previous company (to make sure it wasn’t the same tech we were using there). I was worried I had just lost my job.

thwayunion 4y ago

> non competes can still hurt candidates big time once they go back to the job market because many companies actually have provisions to disqualify those coming in with the extra baggage of a non compete. Get a lawyer, ensure it's not enforcable, then sign it. If you're in CA, sign it. If you're in MA and there is no garden leave clause, sign it. Then do what you want. When a hiring company asks if you have a non-compete, specify: "I am not bound by an enforceable non-compete". If they ask for specifics, explain and mention the law firm you consulted. This has always worked for me. I suppose you could also just say you're not bound by a non-compete, and leave it at that, as that's also not a lie. If I sell myself into slavery in the USA, then I can -- without lying -- tell everyone I'm definitely not a slave. Because I'm definitely, absolutely, not. Non-competes are no different: if it's prime facie unenforceable, then you are NOT bound by a non-compete, full stop, end of story. But I like to be a bit more up-front. > If candidate A and B have very similar skills and experience and A has a non compete and B doesn't, why would anyone bother with A? I've admittedly never been in this situation -- at least as far as I know -- because my skill-set is pretty niche (ie, I am pretty sure that I have always known all the other people in the world who are interchangeable with me for a particular position when I get to the stage of negotiating the offer).

cesarb 4y ago
> Get a lawyer, ensure it's not enforcable, then sign it. If you're in CA, sign it. If you're in MA and there is no garden leave clause, sign it. Then do what you want. What if the law changes and now it's enforceable? What if you move to another USA state, or to another country, and it's enforceable there?
- convolvatron 4y ago
  what if the people who hired you are total idiots and take you to court anyways?
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    Counter-sue for damages consisting of the total value of my foregone compensation package (which are typically 2-4 year packages). Triple real damages because enforcing a prime facie unenforceable contract is an unfair and deceptive business practice. I would be more than happy to be the test case for this novel theory. My strong suspicion is that no competent employer has the balls to do anything other than settle the counter-suit (less about the $ amount than the precedent), and my even stronger suspicion is that I'd win the triple damages if the poor sops in legal were desperate enough for a severance package to try and fight.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  > What if the law changes and now it's enforceable? Before that happened, I'd remind my lawmaker of both my generous giving and also how valuable my personal time and network has been, relative to any campaign donation, in terms of winning and keeping the seat. If it happened anyways, I'd move my primary residence. > What if you move to another USA state, or to another country, and it's enforceable there? That's not how non-competes work in any US jurisdiction of which I'm aware. Even if it were: if a company wants my labor -- and enough do that I'm not concerned about finding takers -- then they have to hire me in a state where I'm comfortable with non-compete law. I don't care about in office vs remote, but I do care about non-compete law. Companies shop around jurisdictions. In-demand labor should as well.

fsckboy 4y ago

> Investors want to be protected and their attorneys will do anything that's necessary to make sure there aren't loopholes left open for ideas to be stolen. The result is poorly drafted and ridiculously broad non compete clauses that would not be enforceable in most if not all states. if the result is "poorly drafted and unenforceable", how can you say that they "made sure there aren't loopholes left open for ideas to be stolen"? makes zero sense.

hnfong 4y ago
Probably means "I don't like how broad the clauses are, so it's bad"...

pyuser583 4y ago

A day after starting my second big tech job, I had to fill out a form about “prior legal obligations.” I mentioned my prior employer made me sign a form similar to the one they had made me sign. An hou later I was pulled aside by the CFO, and quizzed about the tech I used at the previous company (to make sure it wasn’t the same tech we were using there). I was worried I had just lost my job.