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I read the article and groaned. My days of "tweak it until it works, just for fun" are pretty much past me (I'm typing this on a Mac, for instance). I like to s

by pnathan 15y ago

I read the article and groaned. My days of "tweak it until it works, just for fun" are pretty much past me (I'm typing this on a Mac, for instance). I like to spend my energy creating things these days. But Arch seems really cool if you want to rebuild Linux systems for fun & knowledge!

swasheck 15y ago
I find your definitation of "creating things" narrow and shallow. There's a tremendous amount of creativity that goes into customizing an OS to meet every need you have --- and ONLY those needs.
- pnathan 15y ago
  Sure. But unless you're deploying custom Linux builds, what does that get you, exactly? I have a number of packages on my computer I don't use, and I am not being hindered by their existence. I instead use my brain cycles for creating new software & systems, not retooling the existing one to no end. edit: Please understand that I'm not saying a fully customizable Linux doesn't have its place. It absolutely does. But when you're trying to crank stuff out, having to stop and tweak/fix your system simply gets in the way. Well, it gets in my way, at least. :-)
  - filam 15y ago
    Just because a system gives you the freedom to customize your environment, it doesn't mean you required to "retool [it] to no end." I have used a simple Arch Linux installation for years and it has never interrupted my work flow.
  - timdot 15y ago
    "But when you're trying to crank stuff out, having to stop and tweak/fix your system simply gets in the way." That's exactly the reason to customise it yourself rather than using a default "one-size-fits-all" OS like Windows/OSX/Ubuntu. You spend a weekend configuring your computer, then you automate everything you did and then you never have to do anything again. Or at least that's the goal. Still, it gives you control over your computer and that's enough for me. OSX telling me that I wasn't allowed to uninstall certain programs (has been a while since I got rid of my Mac but I think iTunes was one of them) - that bothers the hell out of me.
  - babarock 15y ago
    Although I wouldn't word it so aggressively, I too feel compelled to react to your "creating thing" idea. Dismissing OS customization as something that "gets in the way" is a terrible misunderstanding of the role of an OS in "cranking stuff out". The truth is, good configuration of the OS can save you huge amounts of time in your creating "new software & system time". The truth is, the OS is not supposed to be a black box that lets you run your IDE on top. That leads to extremely redundant systems with multiple failure points. Idiotic as it may sound, proper manipulation of your OS will make you "one" with the machine, and simplify your thoughts greatly. I'll leave you with a quote found all over the Web: "Those who don't understand UNIX are doomed to reinvent it, poorly".
    - pm90 15y ago
      you make excellent points, but that still doesn't answer pnathan's problem. He just wants to get his work done, and he's getting just that with a Mac. Maybe he would not like to invest time in configuring his OS, that's a personal decision. Yes, OS customization may be an interesting/exhilarating experience for you, but maybe not for him; that's how its "getting in the way", for him
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
shaurz 15y ago
Once you have Arch set up, there is very little tweaking that needs to be done. It "just works", well unless you have an AMD or NVIDIA graphics card and a new kernel or xorg comes out which isn't supported yet...
- xentac 15y ago
  I think this is a little disingenuous. The Arch developers do their best to make sure that nvidia and amd drivers work with new kernels. Sometimes updated drivers are needed, but not released for months, and the developers have to make the choice between holding back the kernel update for that small minority or releasing it to the benefit of everyone not using that driver.
- ansgri 15y ago
  Well, there are no graphics cards except AMD and NVIDIA (for Intel doesn't make discrete cards). And someone's a GPGPU developer who develops for various bleeding-edge Radeons and Teslas.
- throwaway64 15y ago
  nouveau and the open source ATI radeon drivers work quite well on hardware that isn't the latest generation, and do not result in those sorts of issues.
MatthewPhillips 15y ago
Mac has major package management issues. Homebrew is fine (not as good as the linux counterparts, but fine), but if you make the mistake of installing Ruby with RVM Homebrew won't work, and you will spend a lot of time fixing it. With Arch you just have to get your basics set up and any development related item you need, there are precompiled packages you will install in seconds.
- schwabacher 15y ago
  Ruby / RVM hasn't broken homebrew for me (thank god!)
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    Homebrew expects ruby to be installed at /usr/bin. RVM installs it in ~/.rvm/bin/ruby-$VERSION. Even if you symlink there are compatibility problems. I'm sure it's fixable, but non-trivially so.
- ConstantineXVI 15y ago
  I've found RVM in general to be pretty temperamental; regardless of OS. rbenv[1] seems much saner. [1] https://github.com/sstephenson/rbenv https://github.com/sstephenson/rbenv
  - MatthewPhillips 15y ago
    Perhaps, my point was that if you screw up your Ruby installation on Mac it is a pain to get things right again. RVM is the recommended way to install Ruby according to ruby-lang.org.
fingerprinter 15y ago
I'm exactly the same way. I used to tweak my system for hours and hours. Now I just want something that works, gets updates and gets out of my way so I can build stuff. Ubuntu FTW. I tried Mac, but nothing, and I do mean nothing, beats apt. Lenovo X220 running Ubuntu 12.04 seems about perfect to me at the moment.

by pnathan 15y ago

swasheck 15y ago

I find your definitation of "creating things" narrow and shallow. There's a tremendous amount of creativity that goes into customizing an OS to meet every need you have --- and ONLY those needs.

pnathan 15y ago
Sure. But unless you're deploying custom Linux builds, what does that get you, exactly? I have a number of packages on my computer I don't use, and I am not being hindered by their existence. I instead use my brain cycles for creating new software & systems, not retooling the existing one to no end. edit: Please understand that I'm not saying a fully customizable Linux doesn't have its place. It absolutely does. But when you're trying to crank stuff out, having to stop and tweak/fix your system simply gets in the way. Well, it gets in my way, at least. :-)
- filam 15y ago
  Just because a system gives you the freedom to customize your environment, it doesn't mean you required to "retool [it] to no end." I have used a simple Arch Linux installation for years and it has never interrupted my work flow.
- timdot 15y ago
  "But when you're trying to crank stuff out, having to stop and tweak/fix your system simply gets in the way." That's exactly the reason to customise it yourself rather than using a default "one-size-fits-all" OS like Windows/OSX/Ubuntu. You spend a weekend configuring your computer, then you automate everything you did and then you never have to do anything again. Or at least that's the goal. Still, it gives you control over your computer and that's enough for me. OSX telling me that I wasn't allowed to uninstall certain programs (has been a while since I got rid of my Mac but I think iTunes was one of them) - that bothers the hell out of me.
- babarock 15y ago
  Although I wouldn't word it so aggressively, I too feel compelled to react to your "creating thing" idea. Dismissing OS customization as something that "gets in the way" is a terrible misunderstanding of the role of an OS in "cranking stuff out". The truth is, good configuration of the OS can save you huge amounts of time in your creating "new software & system time". The truth is, the OS is not supposed to be a black box that lets you run your IDE on top. That leads to extremely redundant systems with multiple failure points. Idiotic as it may sound, proper manipulation of your OS will make you "one" with the machine, and simplify your thoughts greatly. I'll leave you with a quote found all over the Web: "Those who don't understand UNIX are doomed to reinvent it, poorly".
  - pm90 15y ago
    you make excellent points, but that still doesn't answer pnathan's problem. He just wants to get his work done, and he's getting just that with a Mac. Maybe he would not like to invest time in configuring his OS, that's a personal decision. Yes, OS customization may be an interesting/exhilarating experience for you, but maybe not for him; that's how its "getting in the way", for him
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

shaurz 15y ago

Once you have Arch set up, there is very little tweaking that needs to be done. It "just works", well unless you have an AMD or NVIDIA graphics card and a new kernel or xorg comes out which isn't supported yet...

xentac 15y ago
I think this is a little disingenuous. The Arch developers do their best to make sure that nvidia and amd drivers work with new kernels. Sometimes updated drivers are needed, but not released for months, and the developers have to make the choice between holding back the kernel update for that small minority or releasing it to the benefit of everyone not using that driver.
ansgri 15y ago
Well, there are no graphics cards except AMD and NVIDIA (for Intel doesn't make discrete cards). And someone's a GPGPU developer who develops for various bleeding-edge Radeons and Teslas.
throwaway64 15y ago
nouveau and the open source ATI radeon drivers work quite well on hardware that isn't the latest generation, and do not result in those sorts of issues.

MatthewPhillips 15y ago

Mac has major package management issues. Homebrew is fine (not as good as the linux counterparts, but fine), but if you make the mistake of installing Ruby with RVM Homebrew won't work, and you will spend a lot of time fixing it. With Arch you just have to get your basics set up and any development related item you need, there are precompiled packages you will install in seconds.

schwabacher 15y ago
Ruby / RVM hasn't broken homebrew for me (thank god!)
- MatthewPhillips 15y ago
  Homebrew expects ruby to be installed at /usr/bin. RVM installs it in ~/.rvm/bin/ruby-$VERSION. Even if you symlink there are compatibility problems. I'm sure it's fixable, but non-trivially so.
ConstantineXVI 15y ago
I've found RVM in general to be pretty temperamental; regardless of OS. rbenv[1] seems much saner. [1] https://github.com/sstephenson/rbenv https://github.com/sstephenson/rbenv
- MatthewPhillips 15y ago
  Perhaps, my point was that if you screw up your Ruby installation on Mac it is a pain to get things right again. RVM is the recommended way to install Ruby according to ruby-lang.org.

fingerprinter 15y ago

I'm exactly the same way. I used to tweak my system for hours and hours. Now I just want something that works, gets updates and gets out of my way so I can build stuff. Ubuntu FTW. I tried Mac, but nothing, and I do mean nothing, beats apt. Lenovo X220 running Ubuntu 12.04 seems about perfect to me at the moment.