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Seems to be standard practice for Chinese companies. I like the look of some of Onyx's ebook products, but I've refrained from being tempted as they have been i

Seems to be standard practice for Chinese companies. I like the look of some of Onyx's ebook products, but I've refrained from being tempted as they have been in violation for ages. Unless you are a huge company there is very little you can do. There is probably very little you can do even if you are a huge company. Enforcing our laws & licences over there is nigh on impossible, and appealing to their laws is pointless as the government seems to very openly not care about such violations (some would say their attitude practically encourages such violations) unless they happen against one of their interests. This is not at all specific to open-source licences either. My current phone is a Xiaomi, looks like my next one won't be (it may not have been anyway, due to a list of minor irritations & larger red flags like impossible to uninstall apps and a default clock app that demands full contacts access in order to be able to set an alarm, but this is definitely another point against).

jqpabc123 4y ago
[flagged]
- AceJohnny2 4y ago
  Only by some particular definition of "open source", where you use and share what you feel like. The GPL has strict "give back" requirements, which they are not honoring.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > The GPL has strict "give back" requirements, which they are not honoring. What's the status of the GPL under Chinese law? Because maybe they're not required to honor it. IIRC, the GPL was written in the context of certain Western legal systems and depends on certain characteristics of those systems. Even in a Western country, there's probably situations "give back" requirements become unenforceable (e.g. the copyright on the code runs out).
    - babypuncher 4y ago
      I have no idea if they are legally in the right to not honor the GPL under Chinese law. But that doesn't matter. What they are doing is morally repugnant regardless of legality.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > What they are doing is morally repugnant regardless of legality. Not honoring the GPL very, very far down the list of moral wrongs, and certainly isn't in the "morally repugnant" category.
        SllX 4y ago
        Taking someone’s work that they made available under terms which you can always renegotiate with the copyright holder if you want different terms and they are amicable to it is pretty morally repugnant. The terms are the terms and people should be free to choose the terms of their license.
    - necovek 4y ago
      I would be surprised if China was not a signatory od the international copyright law agreements: without that, works coming out of China would arguably be unprotected in the rest of the world too. As such, even if there might specific incompatible provisions in GPL, the nature of the license should be enforceable only if they cared. Though, to be honest, even in US and the "West", we haven't seen many cases where non-copyright-owner was able to score many GPL wins.
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      After they export their products to countries that honor the GPL, does Chinese law matter?
    - SllX 4y ago
      The PRC was allowed into the WTO on December 11th, 2001. Under the TRIPS Agreement, computer programs are protected as literary works, and per that same agreement, the general term of protection is 50 years and shorter terms may not be applied. There’s some stuff in there too about the life of the author, but basic no frills copyright: no fewer than 50 years. The first works covered by the GPL are not yet that old. Yeah, the PRC is basically disregarding that, and yes, the Courts of WTO members are empowered under the TRIPS agreement to provide relief to the copyright holders. Start with Article 42 and work your way up. Chinese law doesn’t even enter into it, and under their political system, is explicitly “rules for thee but not for me” given that the CCP sits above the government and the law.
- _2z1p 4y ago
  The source code for all software produced by Chinese companies is most certainly not available in a “public domain” manner. Hence the complaining about GPL violation. China’s lack of respect for intellectual property is not the same as open source at all.
- 75w 4y ago
  No. China is a society where information is hoarded and only shared if there is a direct benefit.
- genericone 4y ago
  You mean everything is "Finders-Keepers" up until "Might-Makes-Right".
- Arch-TK 4y ago
  > Everything is "public domain" in China. Spoken like someone who has never been in a secure facility in a Chinese software company where you have to go through metal detectors to access air gapped computers just to see some code.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
908B64B197 4y ago
> Seems to be standard practice for Chinese companies. I mean looking at the strings in Huawei's switch firmware revealed Cisco copyright notices. They were too lazy (or didn't understand) how to remove them! [0] > My current phone is a Xiaomi, looks like my next one won't be (it may not have been anyway, due to a list of minor irritations & larger red flags like impossible to uninstall apps and a default clock app that demands full contacts access in order to be able to set an alarm, but this is definitely another point against). Wait until you check you network logs! [0] https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c...
throwaway67743 4y ago
I know anti China rhetoric is all the rage, but you only need to look closer to home to see everyone does it. Xiaomi at least still allow bootloader unlocks for phones and other devices whereas others including western companies do not.
- xslvrxslwt 4y ago
  What's the point in the bootloader if I can't get up-to-date kernels?
  - throwaway67743 4y ago
    Without the bootloader you get nothing, and even less useful kernels as they can't be patched. And some models do have sources available, just buy the ones that do. At least it's not something economically important like an all American made tractor though!
- dspillett 4y ago
  > but you only need to look closer to home to see everyone does it Feel free to name and shame if you have actual examples. No doubt it does happen everywhere at some scale, but it seems to happen everywhere at every scale with Chinese companies.
  - throwaway67743 4y ago
    John Deere, broadcom, Cisco, many more examples I can't think of now. Broadcom are actually one of the most well known assholes for this, well before all these Chinese companies appeared. Also in the Xiaomi case it's not strictly on purpose as they do release sources, they just don't want to or can't allocate resources to doing something that generates no revenue whereas broadcom for example have stated they are just refusing because they don't want to and nobody can make them (which thus far is true, they've won cases before under the guise of it disclosing IP) - now they can just claim the Chinese will steal their IP and disadvantage America so nobody will do a thing.
jacooper 4y ago
But they can be sued in western countries? And if the won't comply they just get banned.
- dspillett 4y ago
  > But they can be sued in western countries? In theory, bit how many open source concerns can afford to go through that? As per the text you replied to: "Unless you are a huge company there is very little you can do." > And if the won't comply they just get banned. Banned from where? The country you sue in? Good luck finding the resources to make that stock more globally. A ban might be somewhat more effective if made at a federal level in the US but would they care about a state level ban or a ban from a smaller country like the UK? A single country/state ban is not going to be terribly effective even in that country/state: who is going to enforce it at the border unless there is some national security interest involved?

jqpabc123 4y ago

[flagged]

AceJohnny2 4y ago
Only by some particular definition of "open source", where you use and share what you feel like. The GPL has strict "give back" requirements, which they are not honoring.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > The GPL has strict "give back" requirements, which they are not honoring. What's the status of the GPL under Chinese law? Because maybe they're not required to honor it. IIRC, the GPL was written in the context of certain Western legal systems and depends on certain characteristics of those systems. Even in a Western country, there's probably situations "give back" requirements become unenforceable (e.g. the copyright on the code runs out).
  - babypuncher 4y ago
    I have no idea if they are legally in the right to not honor the GPL under Chinese law. But that doesn't matter. What they are doing is morally repugnant regardless of legality.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > What they are doing is morally repugnant regardless of legality. Not honoring the GPL very, very far down the list of moral wrongs, and certainly isn't in the "morally repugnant" category.
      - SllX 4y ago
        Taking someone’s work that they made available under terms which you can always renegotiate with the copyright holder if you want different terms and they are amicable to it is pretty morally repugnant. The terms are the terms and people should be free to choose the terms of their license.
  - necovek 4y ago
    I would be surprised if China was not a signatory od the international copyright law agreements: without that, works coming out of China would arguably be unprotected in the rest of the world too. As such, even if there might specific incompatible provisions in GPL, the nature of the license should be enforceable only if they cared. Though, to be honest, even in US and the "West", we haven't seen many cases where non-copyright-owner was able to score many GPL wins.
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    After they export their products to countries that honor the GPL, does Chinese law matter?
  - SllX 4y ago
    The PRC was allowed into the WTO on December 11th, 2001. Under the TRIPS Agreement, computer programs are protected as literary works, and per that same agreement, the general term of protection is 50 years and shorter terms may not be applied. There’s some stuff in there too about the life of the author, but basic no frills copyright: no fewer than 50 years. The first works covered by the GPL are not yet that old. Yeah, the PRC is basically disregarding that, and yes, the Courts of WTO members are empowered under the TRIPS agreement to provide relief to the copyright holders. Start with Article 42 and work your way up. Chinese law doesn’t even enter into it, and under their political system, is explicitly “rules for thee but not for me” given that the CCP sits above the government and the law.
_2z1p 4y ago
The source code for all software produced by Chinese companies is most certainly not available in a “public domain” manner. Hence the complaining about GPL violation. China’s lack of respect for intellectual property is not the same as open source at all.
75w 4y ago
No. China is a society where information is hoarded and only shared if there is a direct benefit.
genericone 4y ago
You mean everything is "Finders-Keepers" up until "Might-Makes-Right".
Arch-TK 4y ago
> Everything is "public domain" in China. Spoken like someone who has never been in a secure facility in a Chinese software company where you have to go through metal detectors to access air gapped computers just to see some code.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

908B64B197 4y ago

> Seems to be standard practice for Chinese companies. I mean looking at the strings in Huawei's switch firmware revealed Cisco copyright notices. They were too lazy (or didn't understand) how to remove them! [0] > My current phone is a Xiaomi, looks like my next one won't be (it may not have been anyway, due to a list of minor irritations & larger red flags like impossible to uninstall apps and a default clock app that demands full contacts access in order to be able to set an alarm, but this is definitely another point against). Wait until you check you network logs! [0] https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c...

throwaway67743 4y ago

I know anti China rhetoric is all the rage, but you only need to look closer to home to see everyone does it. Xiaomi at least still allow bootloader unlocks for phones and other devices whereas others including western companies do not.

xslvrxslwt 4y ago
What's the point in the bootloader if I can't get up-to-date kernels?
- throwaway67743 4y ago
  Without the bootloader you get nothing, and even less useful kernels as they can't be patched. And some models do have sources available, just buy the ones that do. At least it's not something economically important like an all American made tractor though!
dspillett 4y ago
> but you only need to look closer to home to see everyone does it Feel free to name and shame if you have actual examples. No doubt it does happen everywhere at some scale, but it seems to happen everywhere at every scale with Chinese companies.
- throwaway67743 4y ago
  John Deere, broadcom, Cisco, many more examples I can't think of now. Broadcom are actually one of the most well known assholes for this, well before all these Chinese companies appeared. Also in the Xiaomi case it's not strictly on purpose as they do release sources, they just don't want to or can't allocate resources to doing something that generates no revenue whereas broadcom for example have stated they are just refusing because they don't want to and nobody can make them (which thus far is true, they've won cases before under the guise of it disclosing IP) - now they can just claim the Chinese will steal their IP and disadvantage America so nobody will do a thing.

jacooper 4y ago

But they can be sued in western countries? And if the won't comply they just get banned.

dspillett 4y ago
> But they can be sued in western countries? In theory, bit how many open source concerns can afford to go through that? As per the text you replied to: "Unless you are a huge company there is very little you can do." > And if the won't comply they just get banned. Banned from where? The country you sue in? Good luck finding the resources to make that stock more globally. A ban might be somewhat more effective if made at a federal level in the US but would they care about a state level ban or a ban from a smaller country like the UK? A single country/state ban is not going to be terribly effective even in that country/state: who is going to enforce it at the border unless there is some national security interest involved?