5 ms·

Like everything else, licenses are great if you've got the money to take on a behemoth in court. Otherwise you're depending on morality, which tends to take a b

by jnsie 4y ago

Like everything else, licenses are great if you've got the money to take on a behemoth in court. Otherwise you're depending on morality, which tends to take a back seat in big business.

ajross 4y ago
In fact, no, open source licenses have a four-decade-long history of being well enforced and broadly honored in the west. Every major software company employs groups whose sole job is to manage open source license compliance in their code base[1]. This is absolutely a solvable problem and a winnable war without the "money to take on a behemoth in court". And in fact the war was won, long ago[2]. In the west. The difference is the idea of "rule of law", certainly not a cynical take on resourcing. [1] In fact it's more common to see companies irrationally afraid of the consequences of a license violation than ones trying to evade enforcement. [2] Edit, because two replies have wanted to pick on the fact that violations still occur occasionally to try to invalidate the point. Open source software licenses in the modern US and Europe are overwhelmingly honored in commercial software. Period. Yes, companies mess up. But claiming somehow that everywhere-is-as-bad-as-china-and-this-cannot-work is ridiculous. Please stop, that kind of argument is hurting the discourse.
- follower 4y ago
  The fact that the Software Freedom Conservancy currently has an active lawsuit against Vizio (Founded "October 2002 in Costa Mesa, California, U.S.") suggests the war has not, in fact, been won "in the west": <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizio#Lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizio#Lawsuit> More details: <https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html> Edit #1: * Also, John Deere: https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-vi...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- singpolyma3 4y ago
  Every tech company of meaningful size is violating the GPL. Every open source project of meaningful popularity is having it's license violated in USA and EU (even permissively licensed projects). The idea that this is somehow a solved problem is very far fetched.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > Every tech company of meaningful size is violating the GPL. Er, how? Like... Apple, let's say. They ship GPLv2 software in their OS, they ship code on their website. How are they violating it?
- follower 4y ago
  > ...in fact the war was won, long ago[2]. It appears that people have different definitions of what "won" means... > [2] ... violations still occur occasionally ... Yes, companies mess up. ...and also, apparently, "occasionally". When a company with a market cap of ~$USD115 billion shows the "inability to provide complete corresponding source to us for all requested products more than 2 years after our first request"[iii] then (a) by my standard that cannot be considered merely a "mess up"; and, (b) given general corporate aversion to legal risk that implies, for me, many smaller companies with even less visibility also think & act the same way. You may disagree with that assessment. "Voice AI" is another recent example: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/08/voiceai_open_source/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/08/voiceai_open_source/ I don't see either reply to your previous comment mention China at all. But when there are multiple unresolved issues with Western companies that in theory are directly subject to Western "IP" laws, one could ask where it would be most productive to expend one's efforts. [iii] https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-vi...
- jnsie 4y ago
  > In fact, no, open source licenses have a four-decade-long history of being well enforced and broadly honored in the west. Two questions, I guess: * Who enforces them in the US/Europe? * Is there data on open source compliance in commercial software? I'm not being obtuse but when people in the comments provided counter examples, you game argumentative (edit 2). I'm not sure you've proven that anything has been enforced or honored.
  - ajross 4y ago
    You really want me to cite the existence of, what, Linux? OK. Linux exists[1]. Linux exists and is pervasively shipped in license-conforming form by hundreds and hundreds of vendors. Do I win now? Sorry, but my "argumentative" attitude is just exasperation. Open source is the rule, not the exception in the software world. And the license regimes that permit that work exceedingly well. [1] Or chromium, or glibc, or clang, or git, or... It's literally a whole ecosystem of people working on these projects and shipping them in the expectation that they'll be used legitimately according to the license. And you... don't think that happens? Are we all just hallucinating?

by jnsie 4y ago

Like everything else, licenses are great if you've got the money to take on a behemoth in court. Otherwise you're depending on morality, which tends to take a back seat in big business.

ajross 4y ago

In fact, no, open source licenses have a four-decade-long history of being well enforced and broadly honored in the west. Every major software company employs groups whose sole job is to manage open source license compliance in their code base[1]. This is absolutely a solvable problem and a winnable war without the "money to take on a behemoth in court". And in fact the war was won, long ago[2]. In the west. The difference is the idea of "rule of law", certainly not a cynical take on resourcing. [1] In fact it's more common to see companies irrationally afraid of the consequences of a license violation than ones trying to evade enforcement. [2] Edit, because two replies have wanted to pick on the fact that violations still occur occasionally to try to invalidate the point. Open source software licenses in the modern US and Europe are overwhelmingly honored in commercial software. Period. Yes, companies mess up. But claiming somehow that everywhere-is-as-bad-as-china-and-this-cannot-work is ridiculous. Please stop, that kind of argument is hurting the discourse.

follower 4y ago
The fact that the Software Freedom Conservancy currently has an active lawsuit against Vizio (Founded "October 2002 in Costa Mesa, California, U.S.") suggests the war has not, in fact, been won "in the west": <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizio#Lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizio#Lawsuit> More details: <https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html> Edit #1: * Also, John Deere: https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-vi...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
singpolyma3 4y ago
Every tech company of meaningful size is violating the GPL. Every open source project of meaningful popularity is having it's license violated in USA and EU (even permissively licensed projects). The idea that this is somehow a solved problem is very far fetched.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > Every tech company of meaningful size is violating the GPL. Er, how? Like... Apple, let's say. They ship GPLv2 software in their OS, they ship code on their website. How are they violating it?
follower 4y ago
> ...in fact the war was won, long ago[2]. It appears that people have different definitions of what "won" means... > [2] ... violations still occur occasionally ... Yes, companies mess up. ...and also, apparently, "occasionally". When a company with a market cap of ~$USD115 billion shows the "inability to provide complete corresponding source to us for all requested products more than 2 years after our first request"[iii] then (a) by my standard that cannot be considered merely a "mess up"; and, (b) given general corporate aversion to legal risk that implies, for me, many smaller companies with even less visibility also think & act the same way. You may disagree with that assessment. "Voice AI" is another recent example: https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/08/voiceai_open_source/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/08/voiceai_open_source/ I don't see either reply to your previous comment mention China at all. But when there are multiple unresolved issues with Western companies that in theory are directly subject to Western "IP" laws, one could ask where it would be most productive to expend one's efforts. [iii] https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-violations/ https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2023/mar/16/john-deere-gpl-vi...
jnsie 4y ago
> In fact, no, open source licenses have a four-decade-long history of being well enforced and broadly honored in the west. Two questions, I guess: * Who enforces them in the US/Europe? * Is there data on open source compliance in commercial software? I'm not being obtuse but when people in the comments provided counter examples, you game argumentative (edit 2). I'm not sure you've proven that anything has been enforced or honored.
- ajross 4y ago
  You really want me to cite the existence of, what, Linux? OK. Linux exists[1]. Linux exists and is pervasively shipped in license-conforming form by hundreds and hundreds of vendors. Do I win now? Sorry, but my "argumentative" attitude is just exasperation. Open source is the rule, not the exception in the software world. And the license regimes that permit that work exceedingly well. [1] Or chromium, or glibc, or clang, or git, or... It's literally a whole ecosystem of people working on these projects and shipping them in the expectation that they'll be used legitimately according to the license. And you... don't think that happens? Are we all just hallucinating?