4 ms·

You're using bias in two different ways, one factual and one emotional/intentional. Yes, the facts have a bias in that not every result occurs equally often. Bu

You're using bias in two different ways, one factual and one emotional/intentional. Yes, the facts have a bias in that not every result occurs equally often. But then you insinuate that properly representing that facts is the other kind of bias where recognizing it is somehow creating it or endorsing it, and that any difference in measurement obviously represents an inequity. > An actually unbiased AI would describe a person cleaning a kitchen and a person robbing, and if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. You're saying an unbiased AI would apply strong bias to just certain outcomes in an effort to socially engineer us into having "no bias" in some measurements? Where did it get the bias to consider the ratio of kitchen work to be one of the bad kinds of bias, but the bias towards finding grass growing on the ground one of the acceptable kinds of bias, or would it write stories where there is grass but never specify where the grass is growing, just to help us understand our grass/ground bias? > if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. That'd be awesome. Being guilted by your tools for not properly ignoring your senses. Sure, statistically and obviously a woman only needs to watch for dangerous men, but to make everyone feel better she should either treat women like a threat too and waste everyone's time, or treat men as if they're as safe to her as women are and thus get attacked. If you're advertising a product you should obviously advertise to all demographics equally because it's hurtful that only women need tampons, and only men need ball-shavers. > If that seems bad, you don't want an unbiased ai I want tools that work. If I ask for a measurement I want the real measurement, not the measurement that I should want if I were somehow socially aware enough. Just fyi, we can have accurate tools and ask them social-justice questions such as "which professions are sexually-biased but don't seem to still have a physical need to be?" But you can't ask a lying tool this - even if you realized you should ask it would insist that there is no difference.

kennywinker 4y ago
> write stories where there is grass but never specify where the grass is growing, just to help us understand our grass/ground bias? Gee I wonder what the difference between grass and the gender is? Like could there possibly be a categorical difference between those things? Let's ask chatgpt: > ... In summary, grass is a type of plant, while gender is a complex social construct related to identity and behavior. Yup. Sounds like the same thing to me. > I want tools that work. If I ask for a measurement I want the real measurement, not the measurement that I should want if I were somehow socially aware enough. Where in "tell me a story about a robber" is there a measurement? Asking ai for measurements is a bad idea, you're very likely to get made up data back. AI take in written word, and spits out statistically correlated variations on those words. It's a bias-in bias-out machine. That's the problem with it and the power of it. You ask it for a press release or a cover letter and it's going to give you a cover letter or press release that looks exactly like we expect those things to look. Ask it to tell you something about the world, it's going to echo the assumptions and biases that exist in the training data. Some of those assumptions are based in reality (robbers are almost always male) but some of those assumptions are based on stereotypes e.g. kitchens are not actually most often cleaned by women (think restaurant kitchens), but the idea of kitchen and the idea of cleaning have associations with women in the training data. > "which professions are sexually-biased but don't seem to still have a physical need to be?" But you can't ask a lying tool this A little bit better prompt writing and you can get a reasonable answer on this topic: > list five jobs that are usually done by men, and five jobs that are usually done by women. Exclude jobs that require a lot of physical strength >> Five jobs usually done by men: Software Development/IT Engineering Investment Banking Architecture Law >> Five jobs usually done by women: Teaching Nursing Social Work Public Relations Human Resources
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > Let's ask chatgpt No, let's ask you why you envision one being important enough that the tool be trained to treat it differently. Rulers measure the size of books and bullets the same. > grass is a type of plant, while gender is a complex social construct ... As you say, it's not a tool for answers. It's easy to make it say "sex is a synonym for gender". They call it prompting for a reason. You choose what you want it to tell you. > Asking ai for measurements is a bad idea We aren't talking about AIs though, we're discussing LLMs which are models of the usage of human language. An AI would presumably be an entire being with personality, etc, who could choose to answer a question or not and would lie for its own reasons. > [LLMs] take in written word, and spits out statistically correlated variations on those words. It's a bias-in bias-out machine. Yeah, if I ask it for a story set in Scotland the weather should probably be cloudy, and if I ask it for a story set in the mountains there should probably be snow, etc. The bias is the product. If it wasn't biased towards representing reality as described by humans it wouldn't be able to write stories about humans for humans. This is where you're using the word bias in a measurement sense but applying an emotional exclusionary sense. > > you can't ask a lying tool this [...] > A little bit better prompt writing and you can get a reasonable answer [proceeds to ask the existing tool] Yeah, that's my point. In your future the machine would quiz you to determine if you would misuse the data before it would tell you which professions are male/female dominant. Otherwise it'd tell you that crab-fishing is female dominant to deprogram you of latent stereotypes. The only reason you can ask GPT this is because people have said these things and it's modeling their words, and is capable of doing so because it hasn't been content-filtered in this area yet. You're capable of getting it to write sex-unspecified characters by simply asking for it and it doesn't block anyone else's ability to get untainted output.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    You lost me when you started subbing LLM for AI. It’s clear you’re interested in asserting your intellectual superiority, and “winning”. Have a good one.

kennywinker 4y ago

> write stories where there is grass but never specify where the grass is growing, just to help us understand our grass/ground bias? Gee I wonder what the difference between grass and the gender is? Like could there possibly be a categorical difference between those things? Let's ask chatgpt: > ... In summary, grass is a type of plant, while gender is a complex social construct related to identity and behavior. Yup. Sounds like the same thing to me. > I want tools that work. If I ask for a measurement I want the real measurement, not the measurement that I should want if I were somehow socially aware enough. Where in "tell me a story about a robber" is there a measurement? Asking ai for measurements is a bad idea, you're very likely to get made up data back. AI take in written word, and spits out statistically correlated variations on those words. It's a bias-in bias-out machine. That's the problem with it and the power of it. You ask it for a press release or a cover letter and it's going to give you a cover letter or press release that looks exactly like we expect those things to look. Ask it to tell you something about the world, it's going to echo the assumptions and biases that exist in the training data. Some of those assumptions are based in reality (robbers are almost always male) but some of those assumptions are based on stereotypes e.g. kitchens are not actually most often cleaned by women (think restaurant kitchens), but the idea of kitchen and the idea of cleaning have associations with women in the training data. > "which professions are sexually-biased but don't seem to still have a physical need to be?" But you can't ask a lying tool this A little bit better prompt writing and you can get a reasonable answer on this topic: > list five jobs that are usually done by men, and five jobs that are usually done by women. Exclude jobs that require a lot of physical strength >> Five jobs usually done by men: Software Development/IT Engineering Investment Banking Architecture Law >> Five jobs usually done by women: Teaching Nursing Social Work Public Relations Human Resources

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
> Let's ask chatgpt No, let's ask you why you envision one being important enough that the tool be trained to treat it differently. Rulers measure the size of books and bullets the same. > grass is a type of plant, while gender is a complex social construct ... As you say, it's not a tool for answers. It's easy to make it say "sex is a synonym for gender". They call it prompting for a reason. You choose what you want it to tell you. > Asking ai for measurements is a bad idea We aren't talking about AIs though, we're discussing LLMs which are models of the usage of human language. An AI would presumably be an entire being with personality, etc, who could choose to answer a question or not and would lie for its own reasons. > [LLMs] take in written word, and spits out statistically correlated variations on those words. It's a bias-in bias-out machine. Yeah, if I ask it for a story set in Scotland the weather should probably be cloudy, and if I ask it for a story set in the mountains there should probably be snow, etc. The bias is the product. If it wasn't biased towards representing reality as described by humans it wouldn't be able to write stories about humans for humans. This is where you're using the word bias in a measurement sense but applying an emotional exclusionary sense. > > you can't ask a lying tool this [...] > A little bit better prompt writing and you can get a reasonable answer [proceeds to ask the existing tool] Yeah, that's my point. In your future the machine would quiz you to determine if you would misuse the data before it would tell you which professions are male/female dominant. Otherwise it'd tell you that crab-fishing is female dominant to deprogram you of latent stereotypes. The only reason you can ask GPT this is because people have said these things and it's modeling their words, and is capable of doing so because it hasn't been content-filtered in this area yet. You're capable of getting it to write sex-unspecified characters by simply asking for it and it doesn't block anyone else's ability to get untainted output.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  You lost me when you started subbing LLM for AI. It’s clear you’re interested in asserting your intellectual superiority, and “winning”. Have a good one.