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What one could possibly do about this? We submitted reports everywhere but even the GNU guys said they could do nothing about it — are licenses even worth anyth

What one could possibly do about this? We submitted reports everywhere but even the GNU guys said they could do nothing about it — are licenses even worth anything or it's just a fancy marketing thing today?

Infinity315 4y ago
Stronger legislation. Prevent the operation and sale of products which violate GPL and fines which equal the revenue generated from the violation.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Civil legislation is already in place. All you need to do is hire a lawyer and file a lawsuit. The obvious problem being that open source developers may lack the revenue/income/funds to make this a practical reality.
creshal 4y ago
Any form of contract is worthless if one party is Chinese and the other party is not, because the CCP does not care and nobody can force it to. In other cases, the GPL has been shown to be decently effective.
- toast0 4y ago
  You could probably try to get these blocked from import. But that's pretty expensive, and not always very effective.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- riku_iki 4y ago
  They sell stuff in US. Can they be sued in US court and import be blocked or fines paid?
  - vkou 4y ago
    > Can they be sued in US court and import be blocked or fines paid? Yes.
jqpabc123 4y ago
Licenses are meaningless unless someone is willing to defend them. Defending a license takes money. The ability to earn money is limited by open source licensing. Open source licensing is largely self defeating --- as proven by the case in point.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Yes and no. The current geopolitical winds made this not an impossible development. There is a reason we are hearing about it now ( not dissimilar to TikTok news ).
  - rvnx 4y ago
    China is 0% possible to enforce it. I had Chinese guys cloning one of my software without respecting the licence, and their answer was a big fuck you message mixed with lot of insults. So, "reality sucks, deal with it" (Linus Torvalds).
- singpolyma3 4y ago
  I don't see why you think open source licensing limits the ability to earn money?
  - throwawaysalome 4y ago
    The mantra of common sense deniers.
floatinglotus 4y ago
It’s a Chinese company, they don’t care about OSS licenses.
- fabianhjr 4y ago
  Neither do many US-based companies. https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases
  - jdminhbg 4y ago
    Right, the difference is that there's an enforcement mechanism here.
    - fabianhjr 4y ago
      Also in China and in both cases cross-border / international enforcement is so expensive it is non-existent for open source/free software.
    - singpolyma3 4y ago
      That is expensive and approximately never gets used and so every tech company continues to infringe.
- xslvrxslwt 4y ago
  But they should "care" about public backslash, maybe if some tech YouTubers are willing to cover this topic..?
  - avereveard 4y ago
    People don't care that apple resolved iPhone worker suicides with jumpers nets, I don't think they will care of some weird, obscure licensing topic
  - gkbrk 4y ago
    People don't buy Xiaomi because of their fancy tech, they buy it because it's cheap. Tech YouTuber telling people they steal that tech to make it cheap won't make people stop buying their cheap phones. You can ask your government to take action for this IP violation by taxing those brands more, or banning them until they stop violating licenses. I'm sure they'll start caring more after that.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Stop the sale of products that violate licenses in markets the US controls, and compel other states to enforce those licenses, as well. US already does it for other licensed IP.
- teawrecks 4y ago
  We would be operating under the assumption that our current licensing law is ideal. Meanwhile, China/other countries will benefit from new products that we are too principled to use. Over time, what do you think will happen to the half of the world that arbitrarily chooses not to use a whole slew of new technologies? Copyright/patent law only "works" if everyone is compelled to adhere to it. Otherwise, you're just willingly putting yourself at a technological disadvantage.
  - rvnx 4y ago
    In some twisted way, copyright infringement in this case benefits US consumers because they are able to afford devices cheaper because the manufacturer doesn't pay the proper (commercial closed) licensing fees.
    - teawrecks 4y ago
      Yes. And as long as this relationship only works in this direction, China has no incentive to cooperate. If Chinese citizens were also able to buy US products for cheap because they used Chinese tech while ignoring licenses, then China would care. But they know this and are not interested in a partnership. So they took the other, more totalitarian route: make it illegal for their citizens to do that. They're not stupid though, they know that for a totalitarian govt to work they have to keep their citizens happy. So if their citizens are unhappy that they can't purchase a US product, they'll just spawn a Chinese company out of thin air to produce the same thing under a Chinese brand. If they can get away with it, they'll sell it outside China too. All of this is only possible because the west has already been manufacturing all its products over there for decades. The west made itself incredibly vulnerable by moving all manufacturing to China, and now China is taking advantage of that in every way it can. IMO the only way out of this mess is moving the vast majority of our manufacturing back out of China, but it would have to be heavily subsidized because people won't be able to afford it at first.
Alupis 4y ago
A contract, license, or agreement are only "real" if both parties have the means to enforce them. Which means, you have to lawyer up and spend vast sums of money to go after people violating your license (GPL here). Which is why you routinely hear about people violating the GPL - the interested parties have no means to enforce their license, and the counter party likely has deep pockets; deep enough to out last, out spend, and bury the licenser.
- nroets 4y ago
  What if the license says "licencee will provide source code (GPL) or pay $n per device" ? If the lawyers then demand the source code and they don't comply then sue for n x number of devices.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    The reality of the legal system is, it often does not matter who is most righteous, but rather who has more money and more lawyers. There are no provisions of any contract or agreement that matter if you are not prepared to enforce them, no matter the cost. So, while you can insert a clause like you have described above, but you are still in the same position - drain your bank account paying lawyers to maybe recover some damages after probably many months or years of posturing and litigation. The calculus on that effort often means it's not financially sound, or worth trying to enforce the contract. Just to see the inside of a court room, you will already be in the hole for at least six figures. If the other side manages to drag things out for years, the costs increase dramatically. So it becomes - pay $xxx,xxx to litigate and take a chance that maybe if you win, you might recover some of that money... maybe. This is why, again, so many GPL violations exist today. The FOSS projects lack the means to enforce the license. This is also why organizations like the FSF exist - to help FOSS projects (and others) negotiate and litigate these costly-and-usually-not-profitable conflicts.
CountSessine 4y ago
- Are you willing to hire lawyers or approach lawyers? - Yes: - Xiaomi sells products outside of China, both through their own website and through Amazon and Walmart. Sue retailers who carry Xiaomi products and sell them in the US and Europe. - In theory, this is what the US International Trade Commission can do - block imports of products that violate US laws. EU probably has similar - You can't do anything about Xiaomi with China's kangaroo courts within China's borders, but Xiaomi wants US dollars and Euros too so eventually they'll play ball if you're willing to take this far enough - No: - There is exactly nothing you can do so you should learn to take it and like it.
nfriedly 4y ago
I donate to the Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC) - https://sfconservancy.org/ https://sfconservancy.org/ And the Free Software Foundation (FSF) - https://www.fsf.org/ https://www.fsf.org/
jeroenhd 4y ago
> What one could possibly do about this? I doubt it's going to happen, but if the author(s) of stolen open source code file a lawsuit, they may force the matter through the courts. A copyright holder publishing code under the GPLv3 has the ability to revoke permissions to violators. If, say Linus Torvalds or another (big) author of Linux kernel code forces the issue, Xiaomi would perform IP violations every time they try to sell a device running Linux. If this happen, Xiaomi be given a chance to correct the situation at the very least, before revoking becomes possible. If they still don't comply, kernel contributors may use such court cases to get governments to take action. IP theft has led to phones being barred from sale before, and that was because of vague things like "rounded corners". It'll take years of legal fees, but it's possible to hit them where it hurts: denying them access to the lucrative western markets.
belorn 4y ago
It is a depressing fact that the wast majority of all crime goes by without any consequences, and that the biggest factor why we have laws in the first place is norm changing and deterrence from the risk of legal consequences. Once in a while we see selective enforcement when some small individuals goes against large companies that has both money and political influence to get laws enforced, which of course has a bunch of negative consequences.

Infinity315 4y ago

Stronger legislation. Prevent the operation and sale of products which violate GPL and fines which equal the revenue generated from the violation.

jqpabc123 4y ago
Civil legislation is already in place. All you need to do is hire a lawyer and file a lawsuit. The obvious problem being that open source developers may lack the revenue/income/funds to make this a practical reality.

creshal 4y ago

Any form of contract is worthless if one party is Chinese and the other party is not, because the CCP does not care and nobody can force it to. In other cases, the GPL has been shown to be decently effective.

toast0 4y ago
You could probably try to get these blocked from import. But that's pretty expensive, and not always very effective.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
riku_iki 4y ago
They sell stuff in US. Can they be sued in US court and import be blocked or fines paid?
- vkou 4y ago
  > Can they be sued in US court and import be blocked or fines paid? Yes.

jqpabc123 4y ago

Licenses are meaningless unless someone is willing to defend them. Defending a license takes money. The ability to earn money is limited by open source licensing. Open source licensing is largely self defeating --- as proven by the case in point.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Yes and no. The current geopolitical winds made this not an impossible development. There is a reason we are hearing about it now ( not dissimilar to TikTok news ).
- rvnx 4y ago
  China is 0% possible to enforce it. I had Chinese guys cloning one of my software without respecting the licence, and their answer was a big fuck you message mixed with lot of insults. So, "reality sucks, deal with it" (Linus Torvalds).
singpolyma3 4y ago
I don't see why you think open source licensing limits the ability to earn money?
- throwawaysalome 4y ago
  The mantra of common sense deniers.

floatinglotus 4y ago

It’s a Chinese company, they don’t care about OSS licenses.

fabianhjr 4y ago
Neither do many US-based companies. https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases
- jdminhbg 4y ago
  Right, the difference is that there's an enforcement mechanism here.
  - fabianhjr 4y ago
    Also in China and in both cases cross-border / international enforcement is so expensive it is non-existent for open source/free software.
  - singpolyma3 4y ago
    That is expensive and approximately never gets used and so every tech company continues to infringe.
xslvrxslwt 4y ago
But they should "care" about public backslash, maybe if some tech YouTubers are willing to cover this topic..?
- avereveard 4y ago
  People don't care that apple resolved iPhone worker suicides with jumpers nets, I don't think they will care of some weird, obscure licensing topic
- gkbrk 4y ago
  People don't buy Xiaomi because of their fancy tech, they buy it because it's cheap. Tech YouTuber telling people they steal that tech to make it cheap won't make people stop buying their cheap phones. You can ask your government to take action for this IP violation by taxing those brands more, or banning them until they stop violating licenses. I'm sure they'll start caring more after that.

heavyset_go 4y ago

Stop the sale of products that violate licenses in markets the US controls, and compel other states to enforce those licenses, as well. US already does it for other licensed IP.

teawrecks 4y ago
We would be operating under the assumption that our current licensing law is ideal. Meanwhile, China/other countries will benefit from new products that we are too principled to use. Over time, what do you think will happen to the half of the world that arbitrarily chooses not to use a whole slew of new technologies? Copyright/patent law only "works" if everyone is compelled to adhere to it. Otherwise, you're just willingly putting yourself at a technological disadvantage.
- rvnx 4y ago
  In some twisted way, copyright infringement in this case benefits US consumers because they are able to afford devices cheaper because the manufacturer doesn't pay the proper (commercial closed) licensing fees.
  - teawrecks 4y ago
    Yes. And as long as this relationship only works in this direction, China has no incentive to cooperate. If Chinese citizens were also able to buy US products for cheap because they used Chinese tech while ignoring licenses, then China would care. But they know this and are not interested in a partnership. So they took the other, more totalitarian route: make it illegal for their citizens to do that. They're not stupid though, they know that for a totalitarian govt to work they have to keep their citizens happy. So if their citizens are unhappy that they can't purchase a US product, they'll just spawn a Chinese company out of thin air to produce the same thing under a Chinese brand. If they can get away with it, they'll sell it outside China too. All of this is only possible because the west has already been manufacturing all its products over there for decades. The west made itself incredibly vulnerable by moving all manufacturing to China, and now China is taking advantage of that in every way it can. IMO the only way out of this mess is moving the vast majority of our manufacturing back out of China, but it would have to be heavily subsidized because people won't be able to afford it at first.

Alupis 4y ago

A contract, license, or agreement are only "real" if both parties have the means to enforce them. Which means, you have to lawyer up and spend vast sums of money to go after people violating your license (GPL here). Which is why you routinely hear about people violating the GPL - the interested parties have no means to enforce their license, and the counter party likely has deep pockets; deep enough to out last, out spend, and bury the licenser.

nroets 4y ago
What if the license says "licencee will provide source code (GPL) or pay $n per device" ? If the lawyers then demand the source code and they don't comply then sue for n x number of devices.
- Alupis 4y ago
  The reality of the legal system is, it often does not matter who is most righteous, but rather who has more money and more lawyers. There are no provisions of any contract or agreement that matter if you are not prepared to enforce them, no matter the cost. So, while you can insert a clause like you have described above, but you are still in the same position - drain your bank account paying lawyers to maybe recover some damages after probably many months or years of posturing and litigation. The calculus on that effort often means it's not financially sound, or worth trying to enforce the contract. Just to see the inside of a court room, you will already be in the hole for at least six figures. If the other side manages to drag things out for years, the costs increase dramatically. So it becomes - pay $xxx,xxx to litigate and take a chance that maybe if you win, you might recover some of that money... maybe. This is why, again, so many GPL violations exist today. The FOSS projects lack the means to enforce the license. This is also why organizations like the FSF exist - to help FOSS projects (and others) negotiate and litigate these costly-and-usually-not-profitable conflicts.

CountSessine 4y ago

- Are you willing to hire lawyers or approach lawyers? - Yes: - Xiaomi sells products outside of China, both through their own website and through Amazon and Walmart. Sue retailers who carry Xiaomi products and sell them in the US and Europe. - In theory, this is what the US International Trade Commission can do - block imports of products that violate US laws. EU probably has similar - You can't do anything about Xiaomi with China's kangaroo courts within China's borders, but Xiaomi wants US dollars and Euros too so eventually they'll play ball if you're willing to take this far enough - No: - There is exactly nothing you can do so you should learn to take it and like it.

nfriedly 4y ago

I donate to the Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC) - https://sfconservancy.org/ https://sfconservancy.org/ And the Free Software Foundation (FSF) - https://www.fsf.org/ https://www.fsf.org/

jeroenhd 4y ago

> What one could possibly do about this? I doubt it's going to happen, but if the author(s) of stolen open source code file a lawsuit, they may force the matter through the courts. A copyright holder publishing code under the GPLv3 has the ability to revoke permissions to violators. If, say Linus Torvalds or another (big) author of Linux kernel code forces the issue, Xiaomi would perform IP violations every time they try to sell a device running Linux. If this happen, Xiaomi be given a chance to correct the situation at the very least, before revoking becomes possible. If they still don't comply, kernel contributors may use such court cases to get governments to take action. IP theft has led to phones being barred from sale before, and that was because of vague things like "rounded corners". It'll take years of legal fees, but it's possible to hit them where it hurts: denying them access to the lucrative western markets.

belorn 4y ago

It is a depressing fact that the wast majority of all crime goes by without any consequences, and that the biggest factor why we have laws in the first place is norm changing and deterrence from the risk of legal consequences. Once in a while we see selective enforcement when some small individuals goes against large companies that has both money and political influence to get laws enforced, which of course has a bunch of negative consequences.