4 ms·

London is a really unattractive place when you consider salary vs housing affordability. Most of the high tech salary goes straight into the pocket of landlords

by _dain_ 4y ago

London is a really unattractive place when you consider salary vs housing affordability. Most of the high tech salary goes straight into the pocket of landlords. And you can forget buying. But London is where most of the innovative high-paying firms are. So tech workers are in a bind: move to London for a nominally high-paying tech job but get fucking hosed on rent and travel costs, or stay in the regions and work in a lower paid, less interesting firm. There isn't much real difference to your standard of living. It's not just the absolute level of rent either; it also goes up faster. People don't want that kind of liability, you need a raise just to stay in place, and raises aren't forthcoming lately. And it's not easy to get a London-tier salary while working remotely from rural Yorkshire or something. They've been tamping down hard on that kind of thing. The housing market is rigged for boomers and it's strangling Britain's growth. Forget freedom of movement with Europe; I'd like freedom of movement inside my own fucking country first. (And all of the above sounds similar to NYC and SF -- it is, but London's salary upside is nowhere near as high as those places. And Americans have several big metropoles to choose from, we only have the one.)

iamben 4y ago
I don't think the UK particularly encourages startups either. It's all very well saying you want to be a "science and technology superpower" but everything feels like buzzword bingo - quantum! AI! Corp tax is going up, entrepreneur's tax relief went from 10m to 1m... I'm just ranting. I don't know the answer, I don't know what they should be doing. But there's a ton of people doing cool things (or trying to!) and absolutely as you say, it's a whole lot harder to take any risks when London costs as much as it does and bills and expenses are doing what they're doing.
notahacker 4y ago
At some point more startups have got to be tempted by Birmingham unless they really need to network with the City. Has the big city stuff except glamour, close enough to London when the sales or fundraising effort needs to be there, and even the entry level devs can afford their own flat.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  it has a population over million and doesn't even have a metro. and it's ugly as fuck. I don't know how it works out for startup economics but I wouldn't move there. there's also our sad little "Silicon Fen" around Cambridge, again rubbish because of housing affordability and lack of good transport links. it's a national tragedy that there isn't a direct railway link between Oxford and Cambridge (thanks Dr Beeching).
- jack_riminton 4y ago
  "except glamour" lol, understatement of the millennium I say this as someone that used to live and work in London (and spent a small time living in Birmingham as a child), Birmingham has a HUGE way to go to convince anyone like me to live there It may be big, but attractive it is not
  - notahacker 4y ago
    Glamour is relative though. It's even more of an understatement to say Brum is unlikely to be a tourist mecca, but startup salary London isn't Belgravia and the Queen and the West End, it's renting a room in a bog standard Victorian house shared with four strangers in Clapham and cramming onto the Tube for half an hour to get into a Wework whilst dreaming of an exit big enough to own 25% of your own home. You might actually feel more glamorous with your own place in a posh suburb with an overground or a shiny city centre flat even if that city is Birmingham, and the format of the Wework doesn't change much. If you plonked Old Street roundabout onto the edge of Birmingham's inner ring road it'd fit in seamlessly, and for the many hipsters that love the er... bohemian nature of Shoreditch's grimy canals and rail underpasses, sketchy tower blocks and yuppie flats next to crumbling graffiti-covered Victorian buildings turned into bars to sell young trendy people expensive drinks.... just wait until they see how much of that lot Brum has!
epicnoodles 4y ago
This is the biggest problem in the UK. I'm lucky to be working remotely as a Software Engineer from North Leeds for a London based prop-tech startup. Salary around £70k, 1.5/2 years experience. I was living in London for about five to six years, but our rental came to an end. With the mania of last year, we were looking at £2000-£3000 per month for a very average, fairly cramped flat within zone 2 (or 40 mins to our offices). Despite my partner being a solicitor (£50k, but could have been closer to £100k now if we stayed), it felt like a really long road to be able to afford a home. As much as I love London, my friends and the opportunities, we were killing ourselves for vague dream of eventually owning a very average house, or a good leasehold flat in 5-10 years time. It was incredibly demotivating. But maybe our standards are high. We instead bought a huge five detached bedroom house. 15 minutes on the bus to the city, 5 minutes drive and your in the countryside, another 20 and you're in the Yorkshire Dales. David Llyods 5 minute drive away. Empty state of the art, free to use, public tennis courts 10 minutes walk. Massive park (used to be Europes largest urban park) right outside our door. Lots of local pubs and eateries within walking distance and more variety throughout Yorkshire a short drive away. Our monthly mortgage repayments are £1800 (£950 interest, the rest on capital). Quality of life is a no brainer. We live like royalty up here. Even for start-ups the cost of office space is felt high in London. My company were looking at some really average 10-15 seater rooms, which were coming in at £10k per month. I'm sure office space in smaller cities is much cheaper, plus you probably get better employee retention as they aren't squeezed so hard by living circumstances (or poached as a result of needing more money). It's just such a shame that 90%+ (guess) of innovative start ups are in the South East. It becomes self fulfilling as the labour market thickness is much greater there as you can rely on public transport (unlike the North), so more people go there, so more thickness, so easier to hire the team you need. 1) Create reliable public transport in other cities which is competitive to London. Get out of UK centrist mindset. 2) Change cultural perceptions about the rest of the country. Literally a few fictional TV shows or stories about young, techy people living a lifestyle where they all own their own houses, maybe turn an old industrial mill room into a little start-up HQ, go swimming in waterfalls in the Dales at the weekend and still have great nights out in Leeds is all that is needed to break the London fixation. To show people that there is in fact, life beyond London. 3) Create incentives to get some first movers to relocate. Like if a start up physically locates in a particular area (say Leeds city centre), the government will pay half the salaries for the first 20 employees for 3 years. Maybe even throw in some free accommodation in a co-living space to help people settle when they relocate (a bit like a uni experience). Make it financially attractive to founders to scale their businesses in different places. I'm sure there's flaws in those arguments, but there are definitely things the UK can do to make it less depressing to start a business here! It just takes some will, and the government to have the balls to do something tangible outside of the Whitehall bubble.

by _dain_ 4y ago

iamben 4y ago

I don't think the UK particularly encourages startups either. It's all very well saying you want to be a "science and technology superpower" but everything feels like buzzword bingo - quantum! AI! Corp tax is going up, entrepreneur's tax relief went from 10m to 1m... I'm just ranting. I don't know the answer, I don't know what they should be doing. But there's a ton of people doing cool things (or trying to!) and absolutely as you say, it's a whole lot harder to take any risks when London costs as much as it does and bills and expenses are doing what they're doing.

notahacker 4y ago

At some point more startups have got to be tempted by Birmingham unless they really need to network with the City. Has the big city stuff except glamour, close enough to London when the sales or fundraising effort needs to be there, and even the entry level devs can afford their own flat.

_dain_ 4y ago
it has a population over million and doesn't even have a metro. and it's ugly as fuck. I don't know how it works out for startup economics but I wouldn't move there. there's also our sad little "Silicon Fen" around Cambridge, again rubbish because of housing affordability and lack of good transport links. it's a national tragedy that there isn't a direct railway link between Oxford and Cambridge (thanks Dr Beeching).
jack_riminton 4y ago
"except glamour" lol, understatement of the millennium I say this as someone that used to live and work in London (and spent a small time living in Birmingham as a child), Birmingham has a HUGE way to go to convince anyone like me to live there It may be big, but attractive it is not
- notahacker 4y ago
  Glamour is relative though. It's even more of an understatement to say Brum is unlikely to be a tourist mecca, but startup salary London isn't Belgravia and the Queen and the West End, it's renting a room in a bog standard Victorian house shared with four strangers in Clapham and cramming onto the Tube for half an hour to get into a Wework whilst dreaming of an exit big enough to own 25% of your own home. You might actually feel more glamorous with your own place in a posh suburb with an overground or a shiny city centre flat even if that city is Birmingham, and the format of the Wework doesn't change much. If you plonked Old Street roundabout onto the edge of Birmingham's inner ring road it'd fit in seamlessly, and for the many hipsters that love the er... bohemian nature of Shoreditch's grimy canals and rail underpasses, sketchy tower blocks and yuppie flats next to crumbling graffiti-covered Victorian buildings turned into bars to sell young trendy people expensive drinks.... just wait until they see how much of that lot Brum has!

epicnoodles 4y ago

This is the biggest problem in the UK. I'm lucky to be working remotely as a Software Engineer from North Leeds for a London based prop-tech startup. Salary around £70k, 1.5/2 years experience. I was living in London for about five to six years, but our rental came to an end. With the mania of last year, we were looking at £2000-£3000 per month for a very average, fairly cramped flat within zone 2 (or 40 mins to our offices). Despite my partner being a solicitor (£50k, but could have been closer to £100k now if we stayed), it felt like a really long road to be able to afford a home. As much as I love London, my friends and the opportunities, we were killing ourselves for vague dream of eventually owning a very average house, or a good leasehold flat in 5-10 years time. It was incredibly demotivating. But maybe our standards are high. We instead bought a huge five detached bedroom house. 15 minutes on the bus to the city, 5 minutes drive and your in the countryside, another 20 and you're in the Yorkshire Dales. David Llyods 5 minute drive away. Empty state of the art, free to use, public tennis courts 10 minutes walk. Massive park (used to be Europes largest urban park) right outside our door. Lots of local pubs and eateries within walking distance and more variety throughout Yorkshire a short drive away. Our monthly mortgage repayments are £1800 (£950 interest, the rest on capital). Quality of life is a no brainer. We live like royalty up here. Even for start-ups the cost of office space is felt high in London. My company were looking at some really average 10-15 seater rooms, which were coming in at £10k per month. I'm sure office space in smaller cities is much cheaper, plus you probably get better employee retention as they aren't squeezed so hard by living circumstances (or poached as a result of needing more money). It's just such a shame that 90%+ (guess) of innovative start ups are in the South East. It becomes self fulfilling as the labour market thickness is much greater there as you can rely on public transport (unlike the North), so more people go there, so more thickness, so easier to hire the team you need. 1) Create reliable public transport in other cities which is competitive to London. Get out of UK centrist mindset. 2) Change cultural perceptions about the rest of the country. Literally a few fictional TV shows or stories about young, techy people living a lifestyle where they all own their own houses, maybe turn an old industrial mill room into a little start-up HQ, go swimming in waterfalls in the Dales at the weekend and still have great nights out in Leeds is all that is needed to break the London fixation. To show people that there is in fact, life beyond London. 3) Create incentives to get some first movers to relocate. Like if a start up physically locates in a particular area (say Leeds city centre), the government will pay half the salaries for the first 20 employees for 3 years. Maybe even throw in some free accommodation in a co-living space to help people settle when they relocate (a bit like a uni experience). Make it financially attractive to founders to scale their businesses in different places. I'm sure there's flaws in those arguments, but there are definitely things the UK can do to make it less depressing to start a business here! It just takes some will, and the government to have the balls to do something tangible outside of the Whitehall bubble.