7 ms·

Don't any of the major US companies involved with Linux have huge contracts with the DoD? Didn't IBM the current owner of Redhat supply equipment to the Nazis

Don't any of the major US companies involved with Linux have huge contracts with the DoD? Didn't IBM the current owner of Redhat supply equipment to the Nazis which was used to document and track Jews? By the way who are the "We" in "We don't feel comfortable accepting patches from or relating to hardware produced by your organization."?

arp242 4y ago
I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order.
- zaktoo2 4y ago
  You're right. The US has murdered far more innocents and invaded many more countries in the last 50 years than Russia has in its long existence. Introspection is sorely lacking around here.
- hulitu 4y ago
  > I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Of course. The US killings look almost "human" (Serbia, Irak, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Corea etc). And having other country's people killed just to follow US interest shows a lot of empathy. /s
  - arp242 4y ago
    War is always bad, messy, and rarely "clean", but comparing the toppling of fascist nutjobs like the Taliban to a completely unwarranted invasion of Ukraine is borderline bad faith, as is blaming the US for the Yugoslav wars (guess they should have just let the Serbs genocide the Bosnians and Albanians) or going back 75 years to the Korean war. By that standard we should also hold Stalin's purges against Russia for all perpetuity, or Japan, Germany, and Italy for the second world war. These thing are just not the same thing at all.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Russia has invaded 2 sovereign countries since 2000; USA has invaded at least 4. That's roughly the same order.
  - arp242 4y ago
    Afghanistan was ruled by a bunch of religio-fascist nutjobs. Iraq was ruled by a genocidal dictator. Does that mean those wars were a good idea? By my estimation, probably not, for a number of reasons. But they're not they're same thing at all as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's borderline bad-faith to even compare it. I don't which other two you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet they're not the same thing at all either.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      Do you realize how Orwellian it is that you cannot name some of the most prolific and brutal invasions that the #1 superpower has carried out during your own lifetime? This is basic historical literacy. Libya and Syria (ongoing) are the obvious ones you are missing. Anyways, I'm not going to play the "let's take turns justifying the illegal invasions of distant sovereign countries" game.
      - arp242 4y ago
        United States never invaded Libya or Syria in the same way as Russia invaded Ukraine, or the US invaded Iraq. Both are essentially civil wars where the US was (and continues to be?) involved, but that's not the same thing as an invasion. You can dismiss it as a "game", but the reasons and specifics of the situation DO matter. A lot. Denying this means, for example, that the Nazi invasion of Poland is just the same as the allied invasion of Nazi Germany. After all, both are foreign invasions in a sovereign country. No reasonable person would agree these situations are the same; the invasion in to Nazi territory was horrible because all war is, but was, in the end, a good thing. The same cannot be said about the invasion of Poland.
        pphysch 4y ago
- vfclists 4y ago
  > I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Seriously? Setting aside those that the US was directly involved in such as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, how about the war between and Iraq and Iran that the US urged Saddam Hussein on which resulted in about 500,000 dead, for starters? In those days Saddam was the bestie of the US so long as he stuck it to Iran. How about the sanctions on medical supplies to Iraq which resulted in about 500,000 deaths of Iraqi children? Have you forgotten about the invasion of Grenada and Panama that the US invaded to install governments after their own heart? Very much like Russia's invasion of Ukraine only those wars were very much shorter because of the overwhelming might of the US. Sadly the war on Ukraine is lasting much longer because Ukraine has the support of the US, until the US decides that China warrants more attention.
  - arp242 4y ago
    > Sadly the war on Ukraine is lasting much longer because Ukraine has the support of the US, until the US decides that China warrants more attention. ... Sadly? I guess the Ukrainians should just bow over and welcome their new Russian overlords? Or what are you suggesting here? I'm not going to comment on every single example, but in many there is significantly more nuance to most of them as I've explained in some other comments already. Does that mean it's "good"? Not necessarily, but it does mean it's just not the same as a completely unwarranted baseless invasion. The specifics of the situation DO matter and you can't just tally military interventions like that.
    - vfclists 4y ago
      > ... Sadly? I guess the Ukrainians should just bow over and welcome their new Russian overlords? Or what are you suggesting here? Life for the masses of the people is generally the same no matter who rules them. When this war is over the Ukrainian rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer as it has been in the US for the last 40 years or so. The idea that life for Ukrainians under Russian hegemony will be worse than life under a EU/US hegemony is false. The Ukrainian regimes of the last 15 years decided to turn the country into one the sticks it to Russia on behalf of the US. They basically sacrificed their countrymen's wellbeing to service the geopolitical goals of the US and now Ukrainians are suffering dearly for it. Read this - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35180460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35180460 I can't be repeating myself on the Russian/Ukraine war ad infinitum. This war is not being sustained for the benefit of ordinary Ukrainians. This war will end, and that end will involve negotiations, whether this year or in 10 years time. The main sufferers here are the Ukrainians, not their political leaders who have stashed enough abroad to live comfortable lives no matter the outcome of the war, and the US can bribe them even further to prolong the war as much as is possible, much as they bribed Saddam Hussein to prosecute the war against Iraq for 8 years. Whatever the Western powers are doing in Ukraine, is it not for the benefit of the ordinary Ukrainian, just the bankers and the industrialists.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  > You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. When watching "Finding Your Roots" and other genealogy shows I always think when the interviewer asks the person how they feel about the misdeeds of an ancestor: We are all descended from rapists, murderers, and cannibals. And as you imply, we've all done bad in our past. That's part of the experience of learning. It's what we do now that matters. A moment of silence for everyone's first pet.
- crypt47 4y ago
  > Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. It really depends on propaganda. Sadly, you don't get it. IMHO open source shouldn't be a place to decide who's wrong or who's right.
mikebonnell 4y ago
Have we made bad decisions in the past, yes. Should we continue to make those same bad decisions now, no.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Well, we do.
hulitu 4y ago
The guy looks Polish by name. They (the Polish) are now "very good friends" of Ukranians except when the Ukranians are also gypsies and they hate Russia. There are a lot of 3 letter agencies submitting patches to the linux kernel ( for ex. NSA). Do they feel "comfortable" accepting patches from those organizations ?

arp242 4y ago

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order.

zaktoo2 4y ago
You're right. The US has murdered far more innocents and invaded many more countries in the last 50 years than Russia has in its long existence. Introspection is sorely lacking around here.
hulitu 4y ago
> I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Of course. The US killings look almost "human" (Serbia, Irak, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Corea etc). And having other country's people killed just to follow US interest shows a lot of empathy. /s
- arp242 4y ago
  War is always bad, messy, and rarely "clean", but comparing the toppling of fascist nutjobs like the Taliban to a completely unwarranted invasion of Ukraine is borderline bad faith, as is blaming the US for the Yugoslav wars (guess they should have just let the Serbs genocide the Bosnians and Albanians) or going back 75 years to the Korean war. By that standard we should also hold Stalin's purges against Russia for all perpetuity, or Japan, Germany, and Italy for the second world war. These thing are just not the same thing at all.
pphysch 4y ago
Russia has invaded 2 sovereign countries since 2000; USA has invaded at least 4. That's roughly the same order.
- arp242 4y ago
  Afghanistan was ruled by a bunch of religio-fascist nutjobs. Iraq was ruled by a genocidal dictator. Does that mean those wars were a good idea? By my estimation, probably not, for a number of reasons. But they're not they're same thing at all as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's borderline bad-faith to even compare it. I don't which other two you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet they're not the same thing at all either.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Do you realize how Orwellian it is that you cannot name some of the most prolific and brutal invasions that the #1 superpower has carried out during your own lifetime? This is basic historical literacy. Libya and Syria (ongoing) are the obvious ones you are missing. Anyways, I'm not going to play the "let's take turns justifying the illegal invasions of distant sovereign countries" game.
    - arp242 4y ago
      United States never invaded Libya or Syria in the same way as Russia invaded Ukraine, or the US invaded Iraq. Both are essentially civil wars where the US was (and continues to be?) involved, but that's not the same thing as an invasion. You can dismiss it as a "game", but the reasons and specifics of the situation DO matter. A lot. Denying this means, for example, that the Nazi invasion of Poland is just the same as the allied invasion of Nazi Germany. After all, both are foreign invasions in a sovereign country. No reasonable person would agree these situations are the same; the invasion in to Nazi territory was horrible because all war is, but was, in the end, a good thing. The same cannot be said about the invasion of Poland.
      - pphysch 4y ago
vfclists 4y ago
> I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Seriously? Setting aside those that the US was directly involved in such as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, how about the war between and Iraq and Iran that the US urged Saddam Hussein on which resulted in about 500,000 dead, for starters? In those days Saddam was the bestie of the US so long as he stuck it to Iran. How about the sanctions on medical supplies to Iraq which resulted in about 500,000 deaths of Iraqi children? Have you forgotten about the invasion of Grenada and Panama that the US invaded to install governments after their own heart? Very much like Russia's invasion of Ukraine only those wars were very much shorter because of the overwhelming might of the US. Sadly the war on Ukraine is lasting much longer because Ukraine has the support of the US, until the US decides that China warrants more attention.
- arp242 4y ago
  > Sadly the war on Ukraine is lasting much longer because Ukraine has the support of the US, until the US decides that China warrants more attention. ... Sadly? I guess the Ukrainians should just bow over and welcome their new Russian overlords? Or what are you suggesting here? I'm not going to comment on every single example, but in many there is significantly more nuance to most of them as I've explained in some other comments already. Does that mean it's "good"? Not necessarily, but it does mean it's just not the same as a completely unwarranted baseless invasion. The specifics of the situation DO matter and you can't just tally military interventions like that.
  - vfclists 4y ago
    > ... Sadly? I guess the Ukrainians should just bow over and welcome their new Russian overlords? Or what are you suggesting here? Life for the masses of the people is generally the same no matter who rules them. When this war is over the Ukrainian rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer as it has been in the US for the last 40 years or so. The idea that life for Ukrainians under Russian hegemony will be worse than life under a EU/US hegemony is false. The Ukrainian regimes of the last 15 years decided to turn the country into one the sticks it to Russia on behalf of the US. They basically sacrificed their countrymen's wellbeing to service the geopolitical goals of the US and now Ukrainians are suffering dearly for it. Read this - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35180460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35180460 I can't be repeating myself on the Russian/Ukraine war ad infinitum. This war is not being sustained for the benefit of ordinary Ukrainians. This war will end, and that end will involve negotiations, whether this year or in 10 years time. The main sufferers here are the Ukrainians, not their political leaders who have stashed enough abroad to live comfortable lives no matter the outcome of the war, and the US can bribe them even further to prolong the war as much as is possible, much as they bribed Saddam Hussein to prosecute the war against Iraq for 8 years. Whatever the Western powers are doing in Ukraine, is it not for the benefit of the ordinary Ukrainian, just the bankers and the industrialists.
anonymouskimmer 4y ago
> You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. When watching "Finding Your Roots" and other genealogy shows I always think when the interviewer asks the person how they feel about the misdeeds of an ancestor: We are all descended from rapists, murderers, and cannibals. And as you imply, we've all done bad in our past. That's part of the experience of learning. It's what we do now that matters. A moment of silence for everyone's first pet.
crypt47 4y ago
> Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. It really depends on propaganda. Sadly, you don't get it. IMHO open source shouldn't be a place to decide who's wrong or who's right.

mikebonnell 4y ago

Have we made bad decisions in the past, yes. Should we continue to make those same bad decisions now, no.

pphysch 4y ago
Well, we do.

hulitu 4y ago

The guy looks Polish by name. They (the Polish) are now "very good friends" of Ukranians except when the Ukranians are also gypsies and they hate Russia. There are a lot of 3 letter agencies submitting patches to the linux kernel ( for ex. NSA). Do they feel "comfortable" accepting patches from those organizations ?