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My family are Dutch farmers who are in the middle of this discussion for a few years now. As far as I understand, what happened is that Dutch politicians have

My family are Dutch farmers who are in the middle of this discussion for a few years now. As far as I understand, what happened is that Dutch politicians have been too optimistic in their sales for the reduction in nitrogen emissions. In response, the Dutch government has been aggressively making plans to reduce the number of dairy farms in the Netherlands. However, this conflicts with the ambitions of the farmers for two main reasons. Firstly, farmers are very aware of how farming occurs in other countries. The Dutch have a long history of optimizing the farming process with a long history of ever increasing regulations. It makes no sense then to stop farming in the Netherlands to "save" the environment by sending the work to other countries, who then will increase pollution per kg milk produced. For example, farmers in Poland have generally higher maize fields not because they are better farmers, but because they are allowed to put much more manure on the fields. Secondly, farmers are all hard working people who are proud of their family business and who would like to continue their business. Having the government take the business away for controversial reasons doesn't sit right. Furthermore, from what I hear around me, people are done with the current prime minister Rutte. There have been some scandals including the "Rutte-doctrine" in which Rutte thinks that internal government documents do not have to be shared with journalists and the Tweede kamer (lower house of the Dutch parliament) and him being found out for lying time and time again. The whole scandal around the farmers is just a manifestation of the general civil dissatisfaction, as the BBC points out too.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
[flagged]
- mistrial9 4y ago
  what do you think this forum gains with this kind of comment?
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - mistrial9 4y ago
      Starvation is a primal fear.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Indeed, that’s why the absurdity is so stark. There has to be a better answer to the problem than bs regulations like this.
    - dang 4y ago
      Can you please not post in the flamewar style here? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
TT-392 4y ago
Nitrogen pollution causes local problems though, so, spreading this out thinner than in this tiny country of the Netherlands will make an impact. (I don't think it is a perfect solution, and in the end it is because of mismanagement by the government, and not the fault of the farmers, but I do think that reducing the amount of these farms in the Netherlands would make a positive environmental impact)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
WeylandYutani 4y ago
The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries on this planet. Poland is empty. I'm an atheist without kids so if my fellow Dutchman want to continue to rape this country's natural environment it won't affect me much.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  If the farmers are driven away their land will be filled with houses, which is hardly an improvement for the natural environment. The problem is that the Netherlands is very densely populated yet some people insist population needs to grow, so the younger people can work and pay for the older generation. They don’t seem to understand that this can’t go on forever. And of course the nitrogen problem for some people is a handy lever for their problem which is that they are vegans who want to force others to produce and eat less meat as well. They start with the solution of halving the amount of cattle and then go look for problems that require it.
  - petre 4y ago
    The EU has quotas on just about eveything in agriculture. The vegans need not worry. They remind me of the anti nuclear hippies who got us into this mess of being dependent on Russian gas while getting paid by the oil industry.
novusramu 4y ago
> The Dutch have a long history of optimizing the farming process with a long history of ever increasing regulations. Genuinely curious, was this meant to be a sarcastic comment? Because it does sound like one. Fundamentally, regulations tend to have a limiting/taxing effect. Only in some cases do they inadvertently create a game-able system which encourages optimization to circumvent those limitations/taxes, i.e. automation.
bboygravity 4y ago
There was also this little thing about the Rutte government bankrupting lower class parents (through government error) and then having child support kidnap the children of those parents with the argument "you're apparently financially too irresponsible to care of your own children". And then never giving back the children or the money that shouldn't have been taken away until this day. That's just one of the many ludicrous examples.
throwaway_5637 4y ago
I do some research contracting work for the Dutch ministry of Farming, Nature and Food safety. This is a complex problem. The Dutch environment (including agricultural lands) is obviously suffering from a massive amount of intensive farming in the country. Farmer organisations agree on this. Supermarket wars, cheaper import and regulations have put a lot of strain on the margins of farmers, to the point where many are operating at a loss. Uncertainty makes it harder to invest in ‘greening’ farms, which is possible, but expensive. For example, imported animal food lead to nitrogen/fosfor accumulation, while depleting the natural environment in countries of origin (mostly South America). An obvious solution would be to ship manure back, but this is costly + there is little pressure to figure out how to do it economically. Result: ecosystem destruction on both sides, which is detrimental to both Dutch and South-American farmers in the long run. All this while plenty of farmers barely make a living wage.. everything about this sucks. Not sure what to do about it. Here’s some more information, in Dutch. https://www.ser.nl/nl/Publicaties/toekomstperspectieven-landbouw https://www.ser.nl/nl/Publicaties/toekomstperspectieven-land... https://agrimatie.nl/ https://agrimatie.nl/
pipodeclown 4y ago
Your arguments do not make any sense. Contrary to CO2 emmissions, nitrogen emmission have a direct effect on local wildlife, biodiversity and health of people and animals. It therefore does make absolute sense to limit emmissions, even if that means emissions are subsequently done in another country, besides 75% of dutch livestock is produced for export so we are actually currently taking the local emmission burden for foreignly consumed meat!
t0mas88 4y ago
I am Dutch. One of the things the farmers lobby is trying to hide is the fact that 80% of the Dutch farming production is for export. These guys are running large multi-million euro sized companies, with a very significant environmental impact. They try to make it sound like these are small family companies that need to be protected, but that's not the reality for 90% of the farming business. Let alone the fact that there has been a lot of fraud to cheat the environmental regulations. Not just a handful of cases. Somehow the lobby has managed to get a lot of non-farming people to vote for this party, due to their unhappiness about other political topics. Well done for them. But don't expect this to be a lasting thing. A good comparison is the other political party that had a big jump in these same elections 4 years ago. The "Forum for Democracy", attracted similar groups of people that disagree with the government. They lost the most seats this time around, without having had any significant impact the past 4 years. Next time around expect the farmers party to go the same way.
petre 4y ago
I'd like to see Rutte go but seriously, NL is probably using the most nitrogen ferts and pesticides in the EU. That's why I only buy flowers and plants from NL, not food.
Tarq0n 4y ago
https://twitter.com/roosvonk/status/1536595767724494850 https://twitter.com/roosvonk/status/1536595767724494850 amusing how this has been coming for decades, the sector could have taken responsibility but didn't.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

[flagged]

mistrial9 4y ago
what do you think this forum gains with this kind of comment?
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    Starvation is a primal fear.
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      Indeed, that’s why the absurdity is so stark. There has to be a better answer to the problem than bs regulations like this.
  - dang 4y ago
    Can you please not post in the flamewar style here? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

TT-392 4y ago

Nitrogen pollution causes local problems though, so, spreading this out thinner than in this tiny country of the Netherlands will make an impact. (I don't think it is a perfect solution, and in the end it is because of mismanagement by the government, and not the fault of the farmers, but I do think that reducing the amount of these farms in the Netherlands would make a positive environmental impact)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

WeylandYutani 4y ago

The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries on this planet. Poland is empty. I'm an atheist without kids so if my fellow Dutchman want to continue to rape this country's natural environment it won't affect me much.

tinus_hn 4y ago
If the farmers are driven away their land will be filled with houses, which is hardly an improvement for the natural environment. The problem is that the Netherlands is very densely populated yet some people insist population needs to grow, so the younger people can work and pay for the older generation. They don’t seem to understand that this can’t go on forever. And of course the nitrogen problem for some people is a handy lever for their problem which is that they are vegans who want to force others to produce and eat less meat as well. They start with the solution of halving the amount of cattle and then go look for problems that require it.
- petre 4y ago
  The EU has quotas on just about eveything in agriculture. The vegans need not worry. They remind me of the anti nuclear hippies who got us into this mess of being dependent on Russian gas while getting paid by the oil industry.

novusramu 4y ago

> The Dutch have a long history of optimizing the farming process with a long history of ever increasing regulations. Genuinely curious, was this meant to be a sarcastic comment? Because it does sound like one. Fundamentally, regulations tend to have a limiting/taxing effect. Only in some cases do they inadvertently create a game-able system which encourages optimization to circumvent those limitations/taxes, i.e. automation.

bboygravity 4y ago

There was also this little thing about the Rutte government bankrupting lower class parents (through government error) and then having child support kidnap the children of those parents with the argument "you're apparently financially too irresponsible to care of your own children". And then never giving back the children or the money that shouldn't have been taken away until this day. That's just one of the many ludicrous examples.

throwaway_5637 4y ago

I do some research contracting work for the Dutch ministry of Farming, Nature and Food safety. This is a complex problem. The Dutch environment (including agricultural lands) is obviously suffering from a massive amount of intensive farming in the country. Farmer organisations agree on this. Supermarket wars, cheaper import and regulations have put a lot of strain on the margins of farmers, to the point where many are operating at a loss. Uncertainty makes it harder to invest in ‘greening’ farms, which is possible, but expensive. For example, imported animal food lead to nitrogen/fosfor accumulation, while depleting the natural environment in countries of origin (mostly South America). An obvious solution would be to ship manure back, but this is costly + there is little pressure to figure out how to do it economically. Result: ecosystem destruction on both sides, which is detrimental to both Dutch and South-American farmers in the long run. All this while plenty of farmers barely make a living wage.. everything about this sucks. Not sure what to do about it. Here’s some more information, in Dutch. https://www.ser.nl/nl/Publicaties/toekomstperspectieven-landbouw https://www.ser.nl/nl/Publicaties/toekomstperspectieven-land... https://agrimatie.nl/ https://agrimatie.nl/

pipodeclown 4y ago

Your arguments do not make any sense. Contrary to CO2 emmissions, nitrogen emmission have a direct effect on local wildlife, biodiversity and health of people and animals. It therefore does make absolute sense to limit emmissions, even if that means emissions are subsequently done in another country, besides 75% of dutch livestock is produced for export so we are actually currently taking the local emmission burden for foreignly consumed meat!

t0mas88 4y ago

I am Dutch. One of the things the farmers lobby is trying to hide is the fact that 80% of the Dutch farming production is for export. These guys are running large multi-million euro sized companies, with a very significant environmental impact. They try to make it sound like these are small family companies that need to be protected, but that's not the reality for 90% of the farming business. Let alone the fact that there has been a lot of fraud to cheat the environmental regulations. Not just a handful of cases. Somehow the lobby has managed to get a lot of non-farming people to vote for this party, due to their unhappiness about other political topics. Well done for them. But don't expect this to be a lasting thing. A good comparison is the other political party that had a big jump in these same elections 4 years ago. The "Forum for Democracy", attracted similar groups of people that disagree with the government. They lost the most seats this time around, without having had any significant impact the past 4 years. Next time around expect the farmers party to go the same way.

petre 4y ago

I'd like to see Rutte go but seriously, NL is probably using the most nitrogen ferts and pesticides in the EU. That's why I only buy flowers and plants from NL, not food.

Tarq0n 4y ago

https://twitter.com/roosvonk/status/1536595767724494850 https://twitter.com/roosvonk/status/1536595767724494850 amusing how this has been coming for decades, the sector could have taken responsibility but didn't.