5 ms·

> My initial impressions are that GPT-4 is nearly as competent as a human DM I wonder what kind of campaigns we're talking about here. I mean, if it's just min

by mhd 4y ago

> My initial impressions are that GPT-4 is nearly as competent as a human DM I wonder what kind of campaigns we're talking about here. I mean, if it's just mindless modern encounter-based design, sure, I can believe that. Kicking down doors, rolling for initiative, GOTO 10. But even mildly more moderate DM work like re-jiggering set up monsters to react to the actions of the players (in e.g. a Caves of Chaos type of setup)?

A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
See, that's the thing. No matter how much effort you put in to prompting and coaxing it, GPT-3 really couldn't manage anything but the simplest encounter-based game design. There were things that GPT-3 did really well -- it could write you a 600-word essay on the characteristics and atmosphere of each chamber or passage you find yourself in -- but it couldn't stick to a narrative or engage in anything resembling long-term planning. So, ultimately, you're left with something quite strange and dreamlike: A campaign that's vividly -- even hyper-realistically -- described, but where nothing makes sense and there's no logical continuity over time. GPT-4 knows what it's doing, though. It's very different. As far as I can tell right now, it combines the outstanding descriptive capabilities of GPT-3 with the ability to (a) remember things it has previously said and establish logical relations over time, and (b) make sure that the campaign appropriately mirrors a "normal" D&D campaign. GPT-3 would frequently mess up and have you fight dragons at Level 1; GPT-4 more appropriately sticks to goblins and bandits. And, when it comes to tactics, pacing, etc., it's really quite good. I suppose it's a little bit conventionally-minded, but that's to be expected. Almost scary to think that it'll only get better from here on out, because GPT-4 is damn near "good human DM" tier, and already much better than a bad DM.
thom 4y ago
I've been extremely impressed with GPT-4 so far, generating a campaign for my kids. The encounters it created were very well fleshed out (monsters, minions, stats and abilities for all, including very flavourful lair actions for bosses). It's given me NPCs and sample dialogue for each, locations, and a central storyline that is well-threaded throughout. I was genuinely astonished even at its first attempt. I don't know if it could stand up on its own as an interactive dungeon master, but as a tool I am loving it.
meh8881 4y ago
What does mindless modern encounter mean? My sense was that modern players are more plot and narrative focus whereas old school players were down to stuff like roll for a random encounter while traveling and actually play out a fight with… Wolves! That didn’t matter at all to the plot. It was just what you did. Edit: but I could be wildly off here?
- dagw 4y ago
  My feeling is that all this varies far more between groups and possibly even geographic regions that anything else. My memory of the late 90s/early 2000s was that storytelling was the focus, dice where used sparingly and that the "rule of cool" was the only rule that mattered. All much more so than what I see today. I've however also spoken to other people, living in different places, and they remember the same time period being all about rules lawyering and "war gaming". I've also observed a Europe/US divide where the US tends more heavily towards "war gaming" focused role playing with physical maps and moving miniatures around on a table, while Europe tends towards more story focused role playing. But I could be imagining that.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    I have been seeing the opposite myself. In the 90s and 00s it was almost always about the minis and tactical gameplay. DnD 3.5 was a lot more numbers heavy so it kept a lot of the story people out of the game. Now DnD 5 the numbers have such a gentle, predictable curve with bounded accuracy and damage and stuff, you may as well ignore them because there's nothing exciting about rolling the dice anymore. So the story is a lot heavier focus, the character journey. I never used to encounter people who got upset if their character died or groups who had the mentality that characters must always fail forward for the sake of the story. That stuff is everywhere now.
    - dagw 4y ago
      Another aspect I just thought about was that in 90s and 00s there was a lot more diversity of games that were popular. Most people I knew played at least 2 or 3 different games with very different styles and I knew lots of people who never played DnD. Now everybody I talk to seems to play DnD only. Just the fact that the tile is "D&D map makers..." instead of "RPG map makers..." is very telling.

by mhd 4y ago

A_D_E_P_T 4y ago

See, that's the thing. No matter how much effort you put in to prompting and coaxing it, GPT-3 really couldn't manage anything but the simplest encounter-based game design. There were things that GPT-3 did really well -- it could write you a 600-word essay on the characteristics and atmosphere of each chamber or passage you find yourself in -- but it couldn't stick to a narrative or engage in anything resembling long-term planning. So, ultimately, you're left with something quite strange and dreamlike: A campaign that's vividly -- even hyper-realistically -- described, but where nothing makes sense and there's no logical continuity over time. GPT-4 knows what it's doing, though. It's very different. As far as I can tell right now, it combines the outstanding descriptive capabilities of GPT-3 with the ability to (a) remember things it has previously said and establish logical relations over time, and (b) make sure that the campaign appropriately mirrors a "normal" D&D campaign. GPT-3 would frequently mess up and have you fight dragons at Level 1; GPT-4 more appropriately sticks to goblins and bandits. And, when it comes to tactics, pacing, etc., it's really quite good. I suppose it's a little bit conventionally-minded, but that's to be expected. Almost scary to think that it'll only get better from here on out, because GPT-4 is damn near "good human DM" tier, and already much better than a bad DM.

thom 4y ago

I've been extremely impressed with GPT-4 so far, generating a campaign for my kids. The encounters it created were very well fleshed out (monsters, minions, stats and abilities for all, including very flavourful lair actions for bosses). It's given me NPCs and sample dialogue for each, locations, and a central storyline that is well-threaded throughout. I was genuinely astonished even at its first attempt. I don't know if it could stand up on its own as an interactive dungeon master, but as a tool I am loving it.

meh8881 4y ago

What does mindless modern encounter mean? My sense was that modern players are more plot and narrative focus whereas old school players were down to stuff like roll for a random encounter while traveling and actually play out a fight with… Wolves! That didn’t matter at all to the plot. It was just what you did. Edit: but I could be wildly off here?

dagw 4y ago
My feeling is that all this varies far more between groups and possibly even geographic regions that anything else. My memory of the late 90s/early 2000s was that storytelling was the focus, dice where used sparingly and that the "rule of cool" was the only rule that mattered. All much more so than what I see today. I've however also spoken to other people, living in different places, and they remember the same time period being all about rules lawyering and "war gaming". I've also observed a Europe/US divide where the US tends more heavily towards "war gaming" focused role playing with physical maps and moving miniatures around on a table, while Europe tends towards more story focused role playing. But I could be imagining that.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  I have been seeing the opposite myself. In the 90s and 00s it was almost always about the minis and tactical gameplay. DnD 3.5 was a lot more numbers heavy so it kept a lot of the story people out of the game. Now DnD 5 the numbers have such a gentle, predictable curve with bounded accuracy and damage and stuff, you may as well ignore them because there's nothing exciting about rolling the dice anymore. So the story is a lot heavier focus, the character journey. I never used to encounter people who got upset if their character died or groups who had the mentality that characters must always fail forward for the sake of the story. That stuff is everywhere now.
  - dagw 4y ago
    Another aspect I just thought about was that in 90s and 00s there was a lot more diversity of games that were popular. Most people I knew played at least 2 or 3 different games with very different styles and I knew lots of people who never played DnD. Now everybody I talk to seems to play DnD only. Just the fact that the tile is "D&D map makers..." instead of "RPG map makers..." is very telling.