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I have no love for McCain; I'm certainly not voting for him. However, he is famous for supporting causes on both sides of the partisan divide (ex. supporting gl

I have no love for McCain; I'm certainly not voting for him. However, he is famous for supporting causes on both sides of the partisan divide (ex. supporting global warming measures, opposing the Bush tax cuts, supporting the Iraq War, supporting open immigration, etc). It would be hard to detect a coherent ideology in his voting patterns. That is why his selection in the primary process gave self-described "conservatives" fits.

mattmaroon 18y ago
That's true on some parts (though supporting Iraq was never crossing party lines) but I think you have to judge by both words and actions. His actions told one story, but then as soon as it came time to run for the big office his words reversed. He went from preaching against the agents of intolerance to nominating one as his VP. You have to assume that if he is elected, he will do most of what he says he will and live up to his words of late. He will keep or further the Bush tax cuts (or try to anyway) despite having been previously opposed to them because to do otherwise would greatly lessen his chances of reelection. Even 2nd term Presidents, who have that pressure removed, still try to stay close to their promises for the next guy from their party. If anything, their words are probably a better predictor of future actions, since they'll be held accountable. Every time they do something opposite of what they promised, the Daily Show will roll the video they archived.
- Prrometheus 18y ago
  >If anything, their words are probably a better predictor of future actions, since they'll be held accountable. Every time they do something opposite of what they promised, the Daily Show will roll the video they archived. This certainly doesn't seem to have bothered Bush.
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    He's mostly done what he said he would. He said he'd cut taxes for the wealthy, he did. TV shows a bunch of clips of him being a moron, but for the most part he's lived up to his campaign promises.
    - aswanson 18y ago
      Nah... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slmr024JYaA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slmr024JYaA
      - mattmaroon 18y ago
        As much as I despise Bush, that video has very little substance. It's more bashing his mistakes than exposing his not having done what he said he would. It points out some areas where he was wrong, but not really where he didn't try to do something he said. In that video, he said he'd lower taxes and end the surplus and he did. He said he'd try to fix Social Security, and in his own way he did. Love him or hate him, the guy did pretty much what he told us he would. The problem was he also did a lot of stuff that was clearly never discussed, like ignore Katrina or launch the Iraq war. But that's not really hypocrisy.
        divia 18y ago
        I don't like that video either, but Bush clearly discussed having a humble foreign policy, not being the world's policeman, and not nation building. To me, that seems fairly inconsistent with what happened.
        mattmaroon 18y ago
        Well, that was in the pre-9-11 world. You have to admit that was sort of a game changer. Even though I didn't agree with the Iraq war when it happened, at that point it was clear that something has to be done about radical Islam. That wasn't the answer, but not being the world's policeman isn't possible when people are flying planes into buildings and bombing subways. I would say that one was less an act of hypocrisy on Bush's part and more an adaptation to the post 9-11 world.
        rbanffy 18y ago
        I would say Bush snatched the opportunity presented by 9-11. Before 9-11 he would not been able to do a tiny part of the damage he did. Come on... Iraq was not caused by 9-11: 911 only made an invasion based on doctored intellige possible.
- DanielBMarkham 18y ago
  On the general topic if words matter in politics -- my answer is "no" Actions are all that count. People are a fickle bunch, and it's an old trick to sound good on TV and then do whatever you feel like -- as long as it's complicated enough to the average Fred that he's not going to get pissed. That's true for both parties. Look to how people act in the past -- it's a good predictor for the future. (Aside from 9-11 type events)
Tichy 18y ago
"It would be hard to detect a coherent ideology in his voting patterns." Weird, wouldn't a coherent ideology be something good? Because if there is no coherent pattern, I have to ask how can you be sure what he will vote next, and what if not ideology/conviction has determined his votes? (Note: I don't know anything about McCain or Obama, just curious about the content of your argument).

mattmaroon 18y ago

That's true on some parts (though supporting Iraq was never crossing party lines) but I think you have to judge by both words and actions. His actions told one story, but then as soon as it came time to run for the big office his words reversed. He went from preaching against the agents of intolerance to nominating one as his VP. You have to assume that if he is elected, he will do most of what he says he will and live up to his words of late. He will keep or further the Bush tax cuts (or try to anyway) despite having been previously opposed to them because to do otherwise would greatly lessen his chances of reelection. Even 2nd term Presidents, who have that pressure removed, still try to stay close to their promises for the next guy from their party. If anything, their words are probably a better predictor of future actions, since they'll be held accountable. Every time they do something opposite of what they promised, the Daily Show will roll the video they archived.

Prrometheus 18y ago
>If anything, their words are probably a better predictor of future actions, since they'll be held accountable. Every time they do something opposite of what they promised, the Daily Show will roll the video they archived. This certainly doesn't seem to have bothered Bush.
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  He's mostly done what he said he would. He said he'd cut taxes for the wealthy, he did. TV shows a bunch of clips of him being a moron, but for the most part he's lived up to his campaign promises.
  - aswanson 18y ago
    Nah... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slmr024JYaA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slmr024JYaA
    - mattmaroon 18y ago
      As much as I despise Bush, that video has very little substance. It's more bashing his mistakes than exposing his not having done what he said he would. It points out some areas where he was wrong, but not really where he didn't try to do something he said. In that video, he said he'd lower taxes and end the surplus and he did. He said he'd try to fix Social Security, and in his own way he did. Love him or hate him, the guy did pretty much what he told us he would. The problem was he also did a lot of stuff that was clearly never discussed, like ignore Katrina or launch the Iraq war. But that's not really hypocrisy.
      - divia 18y ago
        I don't like that video either, but Bush clearly discussed having a humble foreign policy, not being the world's policeman, and not nation building. To me, that seems fairly inconsistent with what happened.
        mattmaroon 18y ago
        Well, that was in the pre-9-11 world. You have to admit that was sort of a game changer. Even though I didn't agree with the Iraq war when it happened, at that point it was clear that something has to be done about radical Islam. That wasn't the answer, but not being the world's policeman isn't possible when people are flying planes into buildings and bombing subways. I would say that one was less an act of hypocrisy on Bush's part and more an adaptation to the post 9-11 world.
        rbanffy 18y ago
        I would say Bush snatched the opportunity presented by 9-11. Before 9-11 he would not been able to do a tiny part of the damage he did. Come on... Iraq was not caused by 9-11: 911 only made an invasion based on doctored intellige possible.
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
On the general topic if words matter in politics -- my answer is "no" Actions are all that count. People are a fickle bunch, and it's an old trick to sound good on TV and then do whatever you feel like -- as long as it's complicated enough to the average Fred that he's not going to get pissed. That's true for both parties. Look to how people act in the past -- it's a good predictor for the future. (Aside from 9-11 type events)

Tichy 18y ago

"It would be hard to detect a coherent ideology in his voting patterns." Weird, wouldn't a coherent ideology be something good? Because if there is no coherent pattern, I have to ask how can you be sure what he will vote next, and what if not ideology/conviction has determined his votes? (Note: I don't know anything about McCain or Obama, just curious about the content of your argument).