4 ms·

French bulldogs are designed and bred to have health problems. They should be verboten to breed at all, but that's not possible. The nose is so short that they

French bulldogs are designed and bred to have health problems. They should be verboten to breed at all, but that's not possible. The nose is so short that they have breathing problems, also their teeth don't fit into the shorter snout, and the ears are getting infected more often because of ... geometrical changes for lack of a better word. Also the genetics that makes the tail so cute and small messes up the other vertebrae and leads to a higher incidence of issues with the spinal column. Which are expensive to treat, more expensive than buying a new puppy, usually.

csours 4y ago
I absolutely adore French Bulldogs, but I would never buy or adopt one due to this. If they were more common and proven to be healthy, I might consider a mix, but getting a 'hype' dog has it's own ethical problems.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  I think adoption is OK from an animal welfare standpoint. Just don't create extra demand and don't breed them. Of course, they may cause more medical expenses than others, so if you have a choice...
  - bobbylarrybobby 4y ago
    In adopting a French bulldog, you take one off the market, forcing a would-be adopter to instead buy one, which incentivizes the mills.
zumu 4y ago
> French bulldogs are designed and bred to have health problems. They should be verboten to breed at all, but that's not possible. Well, to a certain extent all the AKC dogs have health problems. Even big dogs have stuff like hip dysplasia. Some breeds are healthier than others, but the most important bit is buying from an ethical breeder if you must get a pure bred. Sketchy breeding practices are what exacerbate the health issues in popular breeds.
- Scaevolus 4y ago
  You can screen out hip dysplasia genetically, but the fundamental breed standards for bracycephalic dogs mean they always have compromised respiration. There is no way to breed them that avoids it.
  - mgarfias 4y ago
    No, you can’t screen it out. Genetics only account for about 30% of the causes of hip dysplasia
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      I generally agree. With the breeding standards of German Shepherds for example there will always be a tendency. But also in general, I'd like to caution about overinterpreting the "x percent genetic" figures. They are computed for a particular population of individuals at a particular time. If a breeder's association then changes their guidelines to screen, for example, for HD, and they actually do a good job at it, that figure will go down, because the following generations will have fewer variation in the genes responsible for it.
      - mgarfias 4y ago
        Yet, diet and environment have a huge impact on hips. Also, OFA’s ratings are crap
        m-ee 4y ago
        What are the issues with OFA ratings? They’re treated as sacrosanct on the dog reddits but I’ve never really investigated further
        mgarfias 4y ago
        Completely subjective. The final rating is the average of what three radiologists think about the joint conformation. And, it gets worse, some breeds are rated more harshly that others. For instance, a GSD with an ok looking hip joint will get a “good” rating, but a white Swiss shepherd with the same hip would get a “fair” as OFA wants the WSS to have better hips, so they judge it differently. Also, they take age into consideration, so a 2yro dog will be judged more harshly than a 4yro. We use PennHip, which measures the distraction in the joint, and uses it as a predictor of future health. GSDs on average have a median rating (working from memory, numbers will be handwavy) of something like .5. Thd WSS is more like .4. I’ve seen our kids come back with a pennhip rating of .28/.29, and a fair OFA rating. We’ve stopped sending X-rays for Ofa hips as it doesn’t give us any actual information.
ripley12 4y ago
Adding to the list: they can't even give birth naturally, so most are born via c-section.
- phito 4y ago
  Add to my list (because it's subjective): they look really ugly.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
There has to be more genetically going on than physical dimensions alone. Boston terriers have almost identical dimensions, so much so they’re frequently mistaken for each other by people not familiar enough with either or both breeds, but don’t typically have such severe respiratory problems. I mean I don’t generally recommend either breed unless someone is really prepared for the dog they’re signing up for—frenchies mostly for health factors, bosties mostly for the enormous energy commitment. But they’re very different breeds in a very similar exterior physical package, enough to confuse people very enamored with one or both.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  It's called brachycephaly which means short head. Brachycephalic dogs have a shorter nose and face in general, which leads to most of the mentioned problems: Teeth, ears (Bulla) and problems getting air. Distinct from that is the "wedge vertebrae" problem (spine and curly tail). Yet distinct is the chondrodystrophy: Shorter, deformed legs. The latter is more pronounced in Dachshund or some other bulldog breeds. Not sure if Boston terriers are that much better though. Don't have evidence in front of me.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  The head needs to have certain things in it for the animal to ... live. When you breed the head smaller, the same things still need to be in there, they'll just have less space. Thus, breathing problems, brain literally not fitting in the skull, eyes bulging out... Breeding dogs for looks and not for features is just plain stupid. It's like the dog world is stuck in the ye olde web times when we gave designers Flash and they went completely nuts with "user" "interfaces" which were neither usable nor could they be called interfaces.
Quequau 4y ago
There is someone trying to breed actually healthy French bulldogs, they're called "Hawbucks" if I recall. I suppose it will take some years to fully accomplish.
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  Their nose still looks quite short and the tail is still short and curly. Those genetics are fixed and hard or impossible to change without breeding in other breeds, which would ruin the "frenchiness" of it all. In my opinion this breed should be abandoned. Too many problems to fix and the generations between now and the "fix" still have to live with them.
sofixa 4y ago
> They should be verboten to breed at all, but that's not possible. Of course it's possible. Ban (with heavy fines/jail time) breeding, selling and owning them and the vast majority won't risk it.

csours 4y ago

I absolutely adore French Bulldogs, but I would never buy or adopt one due to this. If they were more common and proven to be healthy, I might consider a mix, but getting a 'hype' dog has it's own ethical problems.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
I think adoption is OK from an animal welfare standpoint. Just don't create extra demand and don't breed them. Of course, they may cause more medical expenses than others, so if you have a choice...
- bobbylarrybobby 4y ago
  In adopting a French bulldog, you take one off the market, forcing a would-be adopter to instead buy one, which incentivizes the mills.

zumu 4y ago

> French bulldogs are designed and bred to have health problems. They should be verboten to breed at all, but that's not possible. Well, to a certain extent all the AKC dogs have health problems. Even big dogs have stuff like hip dysplasia. Some breeds are healthier than others, but the most important bit is buying from an ethical breeder if you must get a pure bred. Sketchy breeding practices are what exacerbate the health issues in popular breeds.

Scaevolus 4y ago
You can screen out hip dysplasia genetically, but the fundamental breed standards for bracycephalic dogs mean they always have compromised respiration. There is no way to breed them that avoids it.
- mgarfias 4y ago
  No, you can’t screen it out. Genetics only account for about 30% of the causes of hip dysplasia
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    I generally agree. With the breeding standards of German Shepherds for example there will always be a tendency. But also in general, I'd like to caution about overinterpreting the "x percent genetic" figures. They are computed for a particular population of individuals at a particular time. If a breeder's association then changes their guidelines to screen, for example, for HD, and they actually do a good job at it, that figure will go down, because the following generations will have fewer variation in the genes responsible for it.
    - mgarfias 4y ago
      Yet, diet and environment have a huge impact on hips. Also, OFA’s ratings are crap
      - m-ee 4y ago
        What are the issues with OFA ratings? They’re treated as sacrosanct on the dog reddits but I’ve never really investigated further
        mgarfias 4y ago
        Completely subjective. The final rating is the average of what three radiologists think about the joint conformation. And, it gets worse, some breeds are rated more harshly that others. For instance, a GSD with an ok looking hip joint will get a “good” rating, but a white Swiss shepherd with the same hip would get a “fair” as OFA wants the WSS to have better hips, so they judge it differently. Also, they take age into consideration, so a 2yro dog will be judged more harshly than a 4yro. We use PennHip, which measures the distraction in the joint, and uses it as a predictor of future health. GSDs on average have a median rating (working from memory, numbers will be handwavy) of something like .5. Thd WSS is more like .4. I’ve seen our kids come back with a pennhip rating of .28/.29, and a fair OFA rating. We’ve stopped sending X-rays for Ofa hips as it doesn’t give us any actual information.

ripley12 4y ago

Adding to the list: they can't even give birth naturally, so most are born via c-section.

phito 4y ago
Add to my list (because it's subjective): they look really ugly.

eyelidlessness 4y ago

There has to be more genetically going on than physical dimensions alone. Boston terriers have almost identical dimensions, so much so they’re frequently mistaken for each other by people not familiar enough with either or both breeds, but don’t typically have such severe respiratory problems. I mean I don’t generally recommend either breed unless someone is really prepared for the dog they’re signing up for—frenchies mostly for health factors, bosties mostly for the enormous energy commitment. But they’re very different breeds in a very similar exterior physical package, enough to confuse people very enamored with one or both.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
It's called brachycephaly which means short head. Brachycephalic dogs have a shorter nose and face in general, which leads to most of the mentioned problems: Teeth, ears (Bulla) and problems getting air. Distinct from that is the "wedge vertebrae" problem (spine and curly tail). Yet distinct is the chondrodystrophy: Shorter, deformed legs. The latter is more pronounced in Dachshund or some other bulldog breeds. Not sure if Boston terriers are that much better though. Don't have evidence in front of me.
theshrike79 4y ago
The head needs to have certain things in it for the animal to ... live. When you breed the head smaller, the same things still need to be in there, they'll just have less space. Thus, breathing problems, brain literally not fitting in the skull, eyes bulging out... Breeding dogs for looks and not for features is just plain stupid. It's like the dog world is stuck in the ye olde web times when we gave designers Flash and they went completely nuts with "user" "interfaces" which were neither usable nor could they be called interfaces.

Quequau 4y ago

There is someone trying to breed actually healthy French bulldogs, they're called "Hawbucks" if I recall. I suppose it will take some years to fully accomplish.

bayesian_horse 4y ago
Their nose still looks quite short and the tail is still short and curly. Those genetics are fixed and hard or impossible to change without breeding in other breeds, which would ruin the "frenchiness" of it all. In my opinion this breed should be abandoned. Too many problems to fix and the generations between now and the "fix" still have to live with them.

sofixa 4y ago

> They should be verboten to breed at all, but that's not possible. Of course it's possible. Ban (with heavy fines/jail time) breeding, selling and owning them and the vast majority won't risk it.