5 ms·

The money bit, I think: > “Inferring the drivers of long-term patterns seen from 1850 until 1980 necessarily remains speculative.” Says lead author Marten Sche

The money bit, I think: > “Inferring the drivers of long-term patterns seen from 1850 until 1980 necessarily remains speculative.” Says lead author Marten Scheffer of WUR. “One possibility when it comes to the trends from 1850 to 1980 is that the rapid developments in science and technology and their socio-economic benefits drove a rise in status of the scientific approach, which gradually permeated culture, society, and its institutions ranging from the education to politics. As argued early on by Max Weber, this may have led to a process of ‘disenchantment’ as the role of spiritualism dwindled in modernized, bureaucratic, and secularized societies.” > What precisely caused the observed reversal of the long-term trend around 1980 remains perhaps even more difficult to pinpoint. However, according to the authors there could be a connection to tensions arising from changes in economic policies since the early 1980s, which may have been defended on rational arguments but the benefits of which were not equally distributed.

unity1001 4y ago
> What precisely caused the observed reversal of the long-term trend around 1980 remains perhaps even more difficult to pinpoint Not at all. https://newrepublic.com/article/161603/john-birch-society-qanon-trump https://newrepublic.com/article/161603/john-birch-society-qa... John Birch society that was founded in 1950s to bring back mid 1800s American anti-intellectualism and religious fundamentalism grew until 1980 and eventually put Reaganites into power. Then this setup exported it to everywhere else it could export itself. Even recently, Trump was openly saying that the US was going to support right-wing movements in Europe a short time before he left the White House. Its the old, religious anti-intellectual fundamentalists that dominated the middle America in 1800s who came back and never left.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  A perfectly plausible story but society is so complex it’s probably unrealistic to pin it all on just that phenomenon.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    Unfortunately it is not a story. The group started with people who convened in small bible study groups who met in each others' homes and churches. These people thought that 'America' was lost, and it should be 'taken back'. They organized and slowly grew like a sect, eventually gaining great political and economic power with those who converted to their cause and especially through the business they exclusively did among their own lot. Its not a unique story. It follows the typical religious sect proliferation mechanics that are seen in any other country. > it’s probably unrealistic to pin it all on just that phenomenon This phenomenon is the head that decides the direction of the broader American conservative spearhead groups from Reaganites to later 'Tea Party' types. They are pretty much meshed with the Evangelists now though, hard to tell them apart.
    - SequoiaHope 4y ago
      Stories can be true. But I could just as easily say that a rise in unfettered capitalism led to a loss of public good research combined with regulatory capture and large corporations pushing against any research that disagreed with them. Then there was the rise of corporate media which further eroded public inquiry to ensure that the large corporations could maintain their control over narratives. This control by the corporate media necessarily required that the viewers be trained to follow directions rather than promoting curiosity. What I said above is true also, but does not say anything about religion. So how can you say that the reason for loss of rationality is caused by the group you mention, rather than the expansion of capitalism as I have mentioned? My point is that we can say something that is definitely true but that does not prove it is the primary cause. Proving something is the primary cause in a complex system is extremely difficult.
      - unity1001 4y ago
        > But I could just as easily say that a rise in unfettered capitalism led to a loss of public good research combined with regulatory captur These are the very lot who pushed all the deregulations and created the movement to go back to 19th century capitalism by dismantling what little social democracy the US had. So if you approach it from that angle, they again come up as the source of the problem. Of course, the mechanics of the phenomenon are self-reinforcing: This religious lot deregulating capitalism causes more poverty, and poverty pushes more people to the arms of religious sects like them for support and aid.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  William F. Buckley basically destroyed the Birchers back in 1965[1], and Regan was a staunch anti Bircher. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/01/15/john-birch-society-qanon-reagan-republicans-goldwater/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/01/15/john-birch...
  - hindsightbias 4y ago
    Er, Reagan turned against Welch, but he wasn't bashing Birchers proper like his peers in the era. He still needed their votes. So he wasn't full metal Q-Anon of the era, but he was probably closer to them than blue bloods. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1966/10/11/reagan-juggles-birchers-and-moderates-while/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1966/10/11/reagan-juggles...
  - unity1001 4y ago
    Thinking that one single person could end an entire religious movement with 'arguments' is totally naive. Neither thinking that Reagan wasnt on board with them for speaking up against certain personas. Birchers were behind most of the administration and the circles that got that administration elected then, and they are still the spearhead of the more extreme American conservatives today. One can argue that the group is not as clear cut as it was because they meshed with a lot of other groups like the Evangelists. But the origin of what is the American reactionary movement is those Birchers.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      Your being overly reductive and your take totally ignores the absolute failure of Bircher candidates to elected outside of say Georgia.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > But the origin of what is the American reactionary movement is those Birchers. The more straightforward explanation is that the reactionary movement in America is due to the anti-democratic means American liberals have used to achieve social change, which differs markedly from what is the case in other developed countries. For example, Germany and France don’t have as strong of a reactionary anti-abortion movement because they never had anything like Roe that overruled the public opinion on abortion. In America over half the country still disagrees about the ban on school prayer, including apparently the democrat Mayor of New York City: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/new-york-playbook-pm/2023/02/28/eric-adams-when-we-took-prayers-out-of-schools-guns-came-into-schools-00084832 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/new-york-playbook-pm/20.... Meanwhile in the UK, school prayer is still legally mandatory: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/nov/20/oxfordshire-parents-win-right-to-prayer-free-school-assembly https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/nov/20/oxfordshir.... That law is adhered to more or less depending on the local community, and overall declining religiosity. But American liberals overruled public opinion on this more than 70 years ago. If you repeatedly use the nuclear option to overcome political opposition you’re going to generate a reaction. You don’t need a Bircher conspiracy to explain what happened.
hindsightbias 4y ago
Americans think of fundamentalist movements behind ME terrorism, Sandinistas and elsewhere were just foreign things that popped up during that era. We are still living in Reagan's world and people who weren't alive at the time just can't grok how different it all is. It's like living in an M. Night Shyamalan universe.
- euroderf 4y ago
  (nods head in vigorous agreement) I think recent American political history can be divided into pre-Reagan and post-Reagan. It really was a fundamental change in the nature of public political discourse.

unity1001 4y ago

> What precisely caused the observed reversal of the long-term trend around 1980 remains perhaps even more difficult to pinpoint Not at all. https://newrepublic.com/article/161603/john-birch-society-qanon-trump https://newrepublic.com/article/161603/john-birch-society-qa... John Birch society that was founded in 1950s to bring back mid 1800s American anti-intellectualism and religious fundamentalism grew until 1980 and eventually put Reaganites into power. Then this setup exported it to everywhere else it could export itself. Even recently, Trump was openly saying that the US was going to support right-wing movements in Europe a short time before he left the White House. Its the old, religious anti-intellectual fundamentalists that dominated the middle America in 1800s who came back and never left.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
A perfectly plausible story but society is so complex it’s probably unrealistic to pin it all on just that phenomenon.
- unity1001 4y ago
  Unfortunately it is not a story. The group started with people who convened in small bible study groups who met in each others' homes and churches. These people thought that 'America' was lost, and it should be 'taken back'. They organized and slowly grew like a sect, eventually gaining great political and economic power with those who converted to their cause and especially through the business they exclusively did among their own lot. Its not a unique story. It follows the typical religious sect proliferation mechanics that are seen in any other country. > it’s probably unrealistic to pin it all on just that phenomenon This phenomenon is the head that decides the direction of the broader American conservative spearhead groups from Reaganites to later 'Tea Party' types. They are pretty much meshed with the Evangelists now though, hard to tell them apart.
  - SequoiaHope 4y ago
    Stories can be true. But I could just as easily say that a rise in unfettered capitalism led to a loss of public good research combined with regulatory capture and large corporations pushing against any research that disagreed with them. Then there was the rise of corporate media which further eroded public inquiry to ensure that the large corporations could maintain their control over narratives. This control by the corporate media necessarily required that the viewers be trained to follow directions rather than promoting curiosity. What I said above is true also, but does not say anything about religion. So how can you say that the reason for loss of rationality is caused by the group you mention, rather than the expansion of capitalism as I have mentioned? My point is that we can say something that is definitely true but that does not prove it is the primary cause. Proving something is the primary cause in a complex system is extremely difficult.
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > But I could just as easily say that a rise in unfettered capitalism led to a loss of public good research combined with regulatory captur These are the very lot who pushed all the deregulations and created the movement to go back to 19th century capitalism by dismantling what little social democracy the US had. So if you approach it from that angle, they again come up as the source of the problem. Of course, the mechanics of the phenomenon are self-reinforcing: This religious lot deregulating capitalism causes more poverty, and poverty pushes more people to the arms of religious sects like them for support and aid.
ch4s3 4y ago
William F. Buckley basically destroyed the Birchers back in 1965[1], and Regan was a staunch anti Bircher. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/01/15/john-birch-society-qanon-reagan-republicans-goldwater/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/01/15/john-birch...
- hindsightbias 4y ago
  Er, Reagan turned against Welch, but he wasn't bashing Birchers proper like his peers in the era. He still needed their votes. So he wasn't full metal Q-Anon of the era, but he was probably closer to them than blue bloods. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1966/10/11/reagan-juggles-birchers-and-moderates-while/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1966/10/11/reagan-juggles...
- unity1001 4y ago
  Thinking that one single person could end an entire religious movement with 'arguments' is totally naive. Neither thinking that Reagan wasnt on board with them for speaking up against certain personas. Birchers were behind most of the administration and the circles that got that administration elected then, and they are still the spearhead of the more extreme American conservatives today. One can argue that the group is not as clear cut as it was because they meshed with a lot of other groups like the Evangelists. But the origin of what is the American reactionary movement is those Birchers.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    Your being overly reductive and your take totally ignores the absolute failure of Bircher candidates to elected outside of say Georgia.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > But the origin of what is the American reactionary movement is those Birchers. The more straightforward explanation is that the reactionary movement in America is due to the anti-democratic means American liberals have used to achieve social change, which differs markedly from what is the case in other developed countries. For example, Germany and France don’t have as strong of a reactionary anti-abortion movement because they never had anything like Roe that overruled the public opinion on abortion. In America over half the country still disagrees about the ban on school prayer, including apparently the democrat Mayor of New York City: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/new-york-playbook-pm/2023/02/28/eric-adams-when-we-took-prayers-out-of-schools-guns-came-into-schools-00084832 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/new-york-playbook-pm/20.... Meanwhile in the UK, school prayer is still legally mandatory: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/nov/20/oxfordshire-parents-win-right-to-prayer-free-school-assembly https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/nov/20/oxfordshir.... That law is adhered to more or less depending on the local community, and overall declining religiosity. But American liberals overruled public opinion on this more than 70 years ago. If you repeatedly use the nuclear option to overcome political opposition you’re going to generate a reaction. You don’t need a Bircher conspiracy to explain what happened.

hindsightbias 4y ago

Americans think of fundamentalist movements behind ME terrorism, Sandinistas and elsewhere were just foreign things that popped up during that era. We are still living in Reagan's world and people who weren't alive at the time just can't grok how different it all is. It's like living in an M. Night Shyamalan universe.

euroderf 4y ago
(nods head in vigorous agreement) I think recent American political history can be divided into pre-Reagan and post-Reagan. It really was a fundamental change in the nature of public political discourse.