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Not super defending this, but it is a maximum hours allowed. Up from 52, which to be fair I think many folks do work, all too regularly (probably many putting i

Not super defending this, but it is a maximum hours allowed. Up from 52, which to be fair I think many folks do work, all too regularly (probably many putting in unpaid labor beyond that!). I can imagine being stuck out in nowhere on a job site with some mission to do and being told, no, I have to stop working, and not being pleased about it. Some things make sense to just hurry up and get done with. But that's not about anything we'd expect folks to sustain.

viraptor 4y ago
The 52h were "Democratic party that limits the working week to 52 hours: 40 of regular work plus 12 of overtime." That gives you an opportunity to effectively pull an all nighter in an emergency once a week. I really don't see why any more would be allowed regularly. That would be a plain management failure.
- tekla 4y ago
  Oh man, management failure in Korea? It would be a management failure to NOT be working workers to the legal limit and then some.
notyourav 4y ago
In USA people can make these calls with much autonomy. In Korea, leaving before your boss is hard to do. In Germany working hours are hard capped and that’s absolutely normal to stop working when your weekly allowance is over. Some things make sense only because that’s your cultural normal.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  > In USA people can make these calls with much autonomy. Not really. The same dynamics play out in the US quite often. Not uncommon to be seen as slacking off if you consistently leave earlier than the boss, even if all your work is done.
- k0k0r0 4y ago
  Yeah, Germany... For the current project I have so much overtime, needed to stop writting down my working hours officially and only record them off-the-record. This is with a mutual silent agreement with my employer to afterwards simply not show up for some time as soon as the project is done. Because... Laws. We are afraid to even talk about it. But to be fair, my employer wouldn't mind to let the project fail (It may very well fail anyway, btw). I am doing it voluntarily. He's not at fault at all, except for maybe allowing me to do it. I just love working on the project and try to get it done somehow, against all odds. Nevertheless, German laws now make something shady out of it. On the other hand, this is not the first time I am doing so utterly stupid and partly self-distructive shit at work. But for sure it is the last time. I am never ever doing this amount of overtime again in my life. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind occasional overtime. But that's simply to much for too long now. I will barely go to work for several months in a row just to get rid of all that overtime, to give you an impression. (I know there is professions where people literally die, if people stop working similar hours. I am not really forced to do that so I am not complaining.) I am glad my significant other is fine with it, since I barely caried any other responsibilities I should have... for a long time now. Edit: I am not sure if there is actually special laws in Germany to avoid mutually agreed overtime. But there is for sure some rules where I work. Our company has a kind of special situation and strange laws surprisingly apply to us. Also it important to mention that if low performance and mistakes because of overworked employees happen nothing terrible will happen. You wouldn't want to have your medical devise be programmed by some sleep deprived idiot, but that is not the situation our company is in. If projects fail, nothing of importance is at risk. Many projects are of high risk and failing simply belongs to the business.
  - larksimian 4y ago
    I don't really see this as a downside to the German legislation. If anything it's ... good? It gives the employee a ton of control over whether they do overtime or not. Yes, it's a bit weird that it's technically illegal... but if neither side complains then it's fine? The power imbalance is so high that normally any scenario where you can 'agree' to work overtime usually leads to employees always having to technically consent or face termination. It's not perfect but I don't know that there is a better solution given the power imbalance and the game theory of these situations.
- QuarterReptile 4y ago
  >In USA people can make these calls with much autonomy. Sort of, but only if you're salaried. The world of working extra hours as a blue-collar employee pretty much got demolished by overtime laws. If you do really low-value work, I imagine you even have some pressure to stay below ACA thresholds.
crossroadsguy 4y ago
You are super defending it. Maximum hours allowed is what protects, not minimum hours. It’s already a hierarchical nightmare in South Korea. Underlings often keep their head bowed and do not make eye contact with their bosses. Speaking from first hand experience - for months.
- chikichaka 4y ago
  Having a job and working in korea is so toxic.
sn41 4y ago
> I can imagine being stuck out in nowhere on a job site with some mission to do and being told, no, I have to stop working, and not being pleased about it. Some things make sense to just hurry up and get done with. This is exactly as intended. Especially if you are doing hazardous work that requires alertness, e.g. operating heavy machinery. The standard solution is to get shift workers.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  The problem is that this sort of "our one size fits all, we know better, peasant" thinking is that while it does reduce abuse by employers that constantly put employees in these situations it also fucks good employers and employees who wind up in these situations rarely and by happenstance and for whom just dealing is the all things considered best solution and the more extreme the rules the more of the latter group they hit. Of course one can always make some useless trite quip about how any situation like that could have been prevented had more resources been invested in preventing it ahead of time but at the scale of an entire economy this becomes stupid and a waste of resources as returns diminish.

viraptor 4y ago

The 52h were "Democratic party that limits the working week to 52 hours: 40 of regular work plus 12 of overtime." That gives you an opportunity to effectively pull an all nighter in an emergency once a week. I really don't see why any more would be allowed regularly. That would be a plain management failure.

tekla 4y ago
Oh man, management failure in Korea? It would be a management failure to NOT be working workers to the legal limit and then some.

notyourav 4y ago

In USA people can make these calls with much autonomy. In Korea, leaving before your boss is hard to do. In Germany working hours are hard capped and that’s absolutely normal to stop working when your weekly allowance is over. Some things make sense only because that’s your cultural normal.

genocidicbunny 4y ago
> In USA people can make these calls with much autonomy. Not really. The same dynamics play out in the US quite often. Not uncommon to be seen as slacking off if you consistently leave earlier than the boss, even if all your work is done.
k0k0r0 4y ago
Yeah, Germany... For the current project I have so much overtime, needed to stop writting down my working hours officially and only record them off-the-record. This is with a mutual silent agreement with my employer to afterwards simply not show up for some time as soon as the project is done. Because... Laws. We are afraid to even talk about it. But to be fair, my employer wouldn't mind to let the project fail (It may very well fail anyway, btw). I am doing it voluntarily. He's not at fault at all, except for maybe allowing me to do it. I just love working on the project and try to get it done somehow, against all odds. Nevertheless, German laws now make something shady out of it. On the other hand, this is not the first time I am doing so utterly stupid and partly self-distructive shit at work. But for sure it is the last time. I am never ever doing this amount of overtime again in my life. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind occasional overtime. But that's simply to much for too long now. I will barely go to work for several months in a row just to get rid of all that overtime, to give you an impression. (I know there is professions where people literally die, if people stop working similar hours. I am not really forced to do that so I am not complaining.) I am glad my significant other is fine with it, since I barely caried any other responsibilities I should have... for a long time now. Edit: I am not sure if there is actually special laws in Germany to avoid mutually agreed overtime. But there is for sure some rules where I work. Our company has a kind of special situation and strange laws surprisingly apply to us. Also it important to mention that if low performance and mistakes because of overworked employees happen nothing terrible will happen. You wouldn't want to have your medical devise be programmed by some sleep deprived idiot, but that is not the situation our company is in. If projects fail, nothing of importance is at risk. Many projects are of high risk and failing simply belongs to the business.
- larksimian 4y ago
  I don't really see this as a downside to the German legislation. If anything it's ... good? It gives the employee a ton of control over whether they do overtime or not. Yes, it's a bit weird that it's technically illegal... but if neither side complains then it's fine? The power imbalance is so high that normally any scenario where you can 'agree' to work overtime usually leads to employees always having to technically consent or face termination. It's not perfect but I don't know that there is a better solution given the power imbalance and the game theory of these situations.
QuarterReptile 4y ago
>In USA people can make these calls with much autonomy. Sort of, but only if you're salaried. The world of working extra hours as a blue-collar employee pretty much got demolished by overtime laws. If you do really low-value work, I imagine you even have some pressure to stay below ACA thresholds.

crossroadsguy 4y ago

You are super defending it. Maximum hours allowed is what protects, not minimum hours. It’s already a hierarchical nightmare in South Korea. Underlings often keep their head bowed and do not make eye contact with their bosses. Speaking from first hand experience - for months.

chikichaka 4y ago
Having a job and working in korea is so toxic.

sn41 4y ago

> I can imagine being stuck out in nowhere on a job site with some mission to do and being told, no, I have to stop working, and not being pleased about it. Some things make sense to just hurry up and get done with. This is exactly as intended. Especially if you are doing hazardous work that requires alertness, e.g. operating heavy machinery. The standard solution is to get shift workers.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
The problem is that this sort of "our one size fits all, we know better, peasant" thinking is that while it does reduce abuse by employers that constantly put employees in these situations it also fucks good employers and employees who wind up in these situations rarely and by happenstance and for whom just dealing is the all things considered best solution and the more extreme the rules the more of the latter group they hit. Of course one can always make some useless trite quip about how any situation like that could have been prevented had more resources been invested in preventing it ahead of time but at the scale of an entire economy this becomes stupid and a waste of resources as returns diminish.