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> Good info with training biases are much more insidious. E.g. “write a story about a robber” always got a male robber when i tried. “Write a story about cleani

> Good info with training biases are much more insidious. E.g. “write a story about a robber” always got a male robber when i tried. “Write a story about cleaning a kitchen” got me a female character. Robbery is theft with battery or threats. It is committed almost entirely by men. As for kitchens, I remember a paper saying the rate of male housework (at all) in a mixed household, worldwide, is less than 20% - in many cases near zero. > So chatgpt is pretty confident that kitchen cleaning is done by women and robbery is done by men. Why is it problematic that ChatGPT understands the world?

recuter 4y ago
Fragile people want to live in a better world someday but need to feel better immediately. It is simply arrested development. If we change your stats, accurately reflecting reality, reality itself will follow. Clap your hands if you believe. Woe to you if you dare not play along, that must mean you want to live in the bad world because you are bad.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  I'm not asking chatgpt to make the robber female and the kitchen cleaner male to cause a change in the world. I'm pointing out that it making those assumptions is the result of a bias. A biases that was collected from training data that may or may not be statistically true (e.g. men probably clean the majority of kitchens in the world, given that they're usually the ones working in restaurants). An unbiased AI wouldn't swap those genders, it would avoid assigning a gender to those roles.
  - recuter 4y ago
    > I'm pointing out that it making those assumptions is the result of a bias. A biases that was collected from training data that may or may not be statistically true Schrödinger's Bias.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      Sorry, was I not clear enough for you? Biases collected from training data that is SOMETIMES statistically true and OTHER TIMES statistically false.
      - recuter 4y ago
        Statistically true bias is quite the notion. I wish to unsubscribe from your newsletter.
        kennywinker 4y ago
        Statistically true bias: trump is statistically less popular than biden, so for chatgpt to praise him would be in violation of the truth - but it's also obvioulsy a bias. But yeah you're unsubscribed.
        recuter 4y ago
        ChatGPT is not a popularity contest, it should give me poems about Andrew Dice Clay should I for some reason desire one. That word, bias, you keep using it, I don't think it means what you think it means ;)
        kennywinker 4y ago
        I agree an unbaised ai would not be a popularity contest - but the reality is that chatgpt is a popularity contest: it's just that votes are cast by the writers of the text that get ingested as training data.
        recuter 4y ago
        And the panel of American Idol type judges at OpenAI who override those votes as the self appointed arbitrators of good taste and insist on claiming the tool is neutral rather than neutered.
kennywinker 4y ago
The point is that chatgpt is a tool that will not only reflect, but re-enforce existing biases when it's out in the world. You just cited stats that show biases in our world. Violent crime is biased towards being done by men, and kitchen cleaning in mixed households is done by women. You can call that "understanding the world" but I think that is very obviously a bias ("A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment"). An actually unbiased AI would describe a person cleaning a kitchen and a person robbing, and if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. If that seems bad, you don't want an unbiased ai - you want an ai that snapshots and reflects the specific demographic biases of the world as they are now. With that in mind: trump lost the last election, he's clearly less popular than biden - why should the ai praise him then?
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  You're using bias in two different ways, one factual and one emotional/intentional. Yes, the facts have a bias in that not every result occurs equally often. But then you insinuate that properly representing that facts is the other kind of bias where recognizing it is somehow creating it or endorsing it, and that any difference in measurement obviously represents an inequity. > An actually unbiased AI would describe a person cleaning a kitchen and a person robbing, and if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. You're saying an unbiased AI would apply strong bias to just certain outcomes in an effort to socially engineer us into having "no bias" in some measurements? Where did it get the bias to consider the ratio of kitchen work to be one of the bad kinds of bias, but the bias towards finding grass growing on the ground one of the acceptable kinds of bias, or would it write stories where there is grass but never specify where the grass is growing, just to help us understand our grass/ground bias? > if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. That'd be awesome. Being guilted by your tools for not properly ignoring your senses. Sure, statistically and obviously a woman only needs to watch for dangerous men, but to make everyone feel better she should either treat women like a threat too and waste everyone's time, or treat men as if they're as safe to her as women are and thus get attacked. If you're advertising a product you should obviously advertise to all demographics equally because it's hurtful that only women need tampons, and only men need ball-shavers. > If that seems bad, you don't want an unbiased ai I want tools that work. If I ask for a measurement I want the real measurement, not the measurement that I should want if I were somehow socially aware enough. Just fyi, we can have accurate tools and ask them social-justice questions such as "which professions are sexually-biased but don't seem to still have a physical need to be?" But you can't ask a lying tool this - even if you realized you should ask it would insist that there is no difference.

recuter 4y ago

Fragile people want to live in a better world someday but need to feel better immediately. It is simply arrested development. If we change your stats, accurately reflecting reality, reality itself will follow. Clap your hands if you believe. Woe to you if you dare not play along, that must mean you want to live in the bad world because you are bad.

kennywinker 4y ago
I'm not asking chatgpt to make the robber female and the kitchen cleaner male to cause a change in the world. I'm pointing out that it making those assumptions is the result of a bias. A biases that was collected from training data that may or may not be statistically true (e.g. men probably clean the majority of kitchens in the world, given that they're usually the ones working in restaurants). An unbiased AI wouldn't swap those genders, it would avoid assigning a gender to those roles.
- recuter 4y ago
  > I'm pointing out that it making those assumptions is the result of a bias. A biases that was collected from training data that may or may not be statistically true Schrödinger's Bias.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    Sorry, was I not clear enough for you? Biases collected from training data that is SOMETIMES statistically true and OTHER TIMES statistically false.
    - recuter 4y ago
      Statistically true bias is quite the notion. I wish to unsubscribe from your newsletter.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        Statistically true bias: trump is statistically less popular than biden, so for chatgpt to praise him would be in violation of the truth - but it's also obvioulsy a bias. But yeah you're unsubscribed.
        recuter 4y ago
        ChatGPT is not a popularity contest, it should give me poems about Andrew Dice Clay should I for some reason desire one. That word, bias, you keep using it, I don't think it means what you think it means ;)
        kennywinker 4y ago
        I agree an unbaised ai would not be a popularity contest - but the reality is that chatgpt is a popularity contest: it's just that votes are cast by the writers of the text that get ingested as training data.
        recuter 4y ago
        And the panel of American Idol type judges at OpenAI who override those votes as the self appointed arbitrators of good taste and insist on claiming the tool is neutral rather than neutered.

kennywinker 4y ago

The point is that chatgpt is a tool that will not only reflect, but re-enforce existing biases when it's out in the world. You just cited stats that show biases in our world. Violent crime is biased towards being done by men, and kitchen cleaning in mixed households is done by women. You can call that "understanding the world" but I think that is very obviously a bias ("A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment"). An actually unbiased AI would describe a person cleaning a kitchen and a person robbing, and if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. If that seems bad, you don't want an unbiased ai - you want an ai that snapshots and reflects the specific demographic biases of the world as they are now. With that in mind: trump lost the last election, he's clearly less popular than biden - why should the ai praise him then?

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
You're using bias in two different ways, one factual and one emotional/intentional. Yes, the facts have a bias in that not every result occurs equally often. But then you insinuate that properly representing that facts is the other kind of bias where recognizing it is somehow creating it or endorsing it, and that any difference in measurement obviously represents an inequity. > An actually unbiased AI would describe a person cleaning a kitchen and a person robbing, and if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. You're saying an unbiased AI would apply strong bias to just certain outcomes in an effort to socially engineer us into having "no bias" in some measurements? Where did it get the bias to consider the ratio of kitchen work to be one of the bad kinds of bias, but the bias towards finding grass growing on the ground one of the acceptable kinds of bias, or would it write stories where there is grass but never specify where the grass is growing, just to help us understand our grass/ground bias? > if pressed would ask the user of the ai to suggest a gender for the character. That'd be awesome. Being guilted by your tools for not properly ignoring your senses. Sure, statistically and obviously a woman only needs to watch for dangerous men, but to make everyone feel better she should either treat women like a threat too and waste everyone's time, or treat men as if they're as safe to her as women are and thus get attacked. If you're advertising a product you should obviously advertise to all demographics equally because it's hurtful that only women need tampons, and only men need ball-shavers. > If that seems bad, you don't want an unbiased ai I want tools that work. If I ask for a measurement I want the real measurement, not the measurement that I should want if I were somehow socially aware enough. Just fyi, we can have accurate tools and ask them social-justice questions such as "which professions are sexually-biased but don't seem to still have a physical need to be?" But you can't ask a lying tool this - even if you realized you should ask it would insist that there is no difference.