3 ms·

> I’d argue “users crave native experiences” is the engineer thinking. I have friends, family and hundreds of coworkers using Google Docs. No one cares. They c

> I’d argue “users crave native experiences” is the engineer thinking. I have friends, family and hundreds of coworkers using Google Docs. No one cares. They care. They just can't put in words that engineers understand. "This is slow", "why can't I copy-paste?", "why is it laggy?", "why does my laptop het up?", "why do I have to wait X seconds for this to open"... All these are "users crave native experiences". On top of that there are power users. Who may not be engineers, but who rely on certain things that exist in the system. From shortcuts (half of which are hijacked by the browser) to offline use to ... On top of that a decade of moving everything to web tech has taught users to expect shittiness. Many don't even know that it shouldn't take 10+ seconds for an app containing nothing to open. And yet, here we are. Especially if it's an "app" on a spotty network connection.

afavour 4y ago
When I say "no-one cares" I don't mean "they complain endlessly but accept it", I mean "they don't complain". They don't find Google Docs slow (nor for the record do I). They are happy with the solution in their hands. Copy and paste on the other hand is a great example of the circular logic at work here: it is an issue and when browsers propose an API to fix the issue everyone throws up their hands and says "clipboard access? in a browser?!?!?" just like they are in this thread with filesystem access. Same with offline access via service workers. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy: web apps are inferior because they don't have features native apps have... and they shouldn't be allowed to have those features because native apps are superior. So around and around we go with the same old debate, the only losers are the users that want to just get on with things.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > When I say "no-one cares" I don't mean "they complain endlessly but accept it", I mean "they don't complain". They don't find Google Docs slow (nor for the record do I). Again: it's because no one ever asks the right questions or actually watches people work. Or watches these apps in general. Last year Google Docs consumed 20% of CPU on an M1 to scroll a two-page empty document. "They are happy with the solution in their hands". > Copy and paste on the other hand is a great example of the circular logic at work here: it is an issue and when browsers propose an API to fix the issue everyone throws up their hands and says "clipboard access? in a browser?!?!?" Nope. It's not "circular logic". If you look at iOS which actually has app sandboxing that you want on desktop (and that people keep complaining about), you are now notified when an app accesses clipboard. Why? Precisely because of the numerous issues with apps accessing clipboard data. Again, it's funny how in the name of privacy you're literally arguing for giving web sites all the same access as the desktop apps that you complain are security nightmares.
  - afavour 4y ago
    > Again: it's because no one ever asks the right questions or actually watches people work. This thread is getting nowhere but I'll leave it with this: the attitude you've outlined here is really patronizing. That these users can't possibly have valid opinions about the tools they use, if they dare to be happy with them they are wrong because you know better than they do. How dare they not care about 20% CPU usage! How dare they! > it's funny how in the name of privacy at no point have I made an argument that has anything to do with privacy > the desktop apps that you complain are security nightmares nor have I ever claimed desktop apps are security nightmares. Like I said, I think I'm comfortable wrapping up my contributions here. I don't think conversation beyond this point is productive.
    - illiarian 4y ago
      > This thread is getting nowhere but I'll leave it with this: the attitude you've outlined here is really patronizing. It's not. > That these users can't possibly have valid opinions about the tools they use, if they dare to be happy with them they are wrong because you know better than they do. How dare they not care about 20% CPU usage! How dare they! You're ascribing thoughts and words to me that I never said or thought. > at no point have I made an argument that has anything to do with privacy What argument did you then make? We're literally in the context of why these things are the way the are due to privacy concerns > I don't think conversation beyond this point is productive. I don't think it was ever meant to be productive with opening like "you're thinking like an engineer and can't ever imagine what a user thinks or does"

afavour 4y ago

When I say "no-one cares" I don't mean "they complain endlessly but accept it", I mean "they don't complain". They don't find Google Docs slow (nor for the record do I). They are happy with the solution in their hands. Copy and paste on the other hand is a great example of the circular logic at work here: it is an issue and when browsers propose an API to fix the issue everyone throws up their hands and says "clipboard access? in a browser?!?!?" just like they are in this thread with filesystem access. Same with offline access via service workers. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy: web apps are inferior because they don't have features native apps have... and they shouldn't be allowed to have those features because native apps are superior. So around and around we go with the same old debate, the only losers are the users that want to just get on with things.

illiarian 4y ago
> When I say "no-one cares" I don't mean "they complain endlessly but accept it", I mean "they don't complain". They don't find Google Docs slow (nor for the record do I). Again: it's because no one ever asks the right questions or actually watches people work. Or watches these apps in general. Last year Google Docs consumed 20% of CPU on an M1 to scroll a two-page empty document. "They are happy with the solution in their hands". > Copy and paste on the other hand is a great example of the circular logic at work here: it is an issue and when browsers propose an API to fix the issue everyone throws up their hands and says "clipboard access? in a browser?!?!?" Nope. It's not "circular logic". If you look at iOS which actually has app sandboxing that you want on desktop (and that people keep complaining about), you are now notified when an app accesses clipboard. Why? Precisely because of the numerous issues with apps accessing clipboard data. Again, it's funny how in the name of privacy you're literally arguing for giving web sites all the same access as the desktop apps that you complain are security nightmares.
- afavour 4y ago
  > Again: it's because no one ever asks the right questions or actually watches people work. This thread is getting nowhere but I'll leave it with this: the attitude you've outlined here is really patronizing. That these users can't possibly have valid opinions about the tools they use, if they dare to be happy with them they are wrong because you know better than they do. How dare they not care about 20% CPU usage! How dare they! > it's funny how in the name of privacy at no point have I made an argument that has anything to do with privacy > the desktop apps that you complain are security nightmares nor have I ever claimed desktop apps are security nightmares. Like I said, I think I'm comfortable wrapping up my contributions here. I don't think conversation beyond this point is productive.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > This thread is getting nowhere but I'll leave it with this: the attitude you've outlined here is really patronizing. It's not. > That these users can't possibly have valid opinions about the tools they use, if they dare to be happy with them they are wrong because you know better than they do. How dare they not care about 20% CPU usage! How dare they! You're ascribing thoughts and words to me that I never said or thought. > at no point have I made an argument that has anything to do with privacy What argument did you then make? We're literally in the context of why these things are the way the are due to privacy concerns > I don't think conversation beyond this point is productive. I don't think it was ever meant to be productive with opening like "you're thinking like an engineer and can't ever imagine what a user thinks or does"