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I'm HN's resident Republican curmudgeon, but this is all squarely the fault of the Tories. They've over-optimized the economy to _only_ do what they're the best

I'm HN's resident Republican curmudgeon, but this is all squarely the fault of the Tories. They've over-optimized the economy to _only_ do what they're the best in the world at, the rest of the country be damned. They're out of touch with people in Manchester, with immigration sentiment in the Midlands, and with just how hated they are by the Scotts. I really wish Labour would get it together, focus on something besides hating Israel, and end this nonsense. The UK used to have a bunch of competitive car, aircraft, and train manufacturing concerns - no more. This is a total failure of governance.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
uhtred 4y ago
What has Labour done to suggest they hate Israel?
- SuoDuanDao 4y ago
  Supposedly Jeremy Corbin said something overly critical of its foreign policy, but I've yet to hear a direct quote I wouldn't myself say in public.
- francis-io 4y ago
  Looks like they recently made up: "UK Labour Party is pro-Israel again, says chair of its visiting friendship group" "After antisemitism drove Jews away in Corbyn era, MP Steve McCabe says opposition party has returned to traditional Israel-backing stance, but is concerned about the new coalition" https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-party-is-pro-israel-again-says-chair-of-its-visiting-friendship-group/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-party-is-pro-israel-...
  - theironhammer 4y ago
    Wow, so you have to be pro-Israel in order to not be considered an anti-Semite? What about all those Israelis marching against the govt in Israel, are they considered anti-Semites too? Western political discourse has descended into utter nonsense.
    - anoonmoose 4y ago
      There are entire Wikipedia articles on the history of Labour's issues with anti-Semitism- I know, because my link to one was posted before your reply was. The issue is much more nuanced than what you or the person you're replying to are implying.
- anoonmoose 4y ago
  Look, I don't really wanna get bogged down in Tory-Labour, Republican-Democrat, "is being opposed to certain issues and members of the Irsaeli government anti-Semitic" conversation. I really don't. But as a US citizen who follows US news closely and world news incidentally, I'm aware this is an entire topic of discussion. I expected it to be a section of Corbyn's page- and it was- but there's a whole Wikipedia article about it, so you can judge for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_... My personal read is, it ain't much different from some stuff in US politics. A bit of horseshoe theory stuff, not that I buy into that at large. But on the right you have politicians making alliances with neo-Nazis, on the left you have fervently pro-Palestine politicians. Both sides are or can be partially motivated by xenophobia, neither side is immune to having a theoretically defensible view possibly motivated by actual prejudice. I myself have been called an anti-Semite over disagreements that I believe to have little to do with religion and much to do with the actions of government agents. So it goes.
- jampekka 4y ago
  Proposed leftist economic policy.
- vermooten 4y ago
  St Jeremy led an institutionally anti-semitic Labour Party, clearly documented by the EHRC. Reading that will answer your question.
raspberry1337 4y ago
Ironic you blame the Tories, since all those industries primarily died of during the 70s, after the collapse of Bretton-woods; when unionist Labour ruled the country by marxist-economist principles.
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  France and Germany are industrial powerhouses that are ruled by unions. Much more of their GDP comes from manufacturing than the USA, and dramatically more than the UK. It's absolutely possible to build a harmonious and productive system.
  - raspberry1337 4y ago
    France has smaller manufacturing than the UK [1], neither France or Germany has never been "ruled by unions" the same way that the UK was in the 70s [2]: > _The most egregious example of waste was the coal industry, hence the strikes. The tax payer was subsidizing coal to the tune of £1.3 billion a year which was real money back then, just under 1% of total national GDP, not including the increased costs to power and steel industries that were prevented from using cheaper alternatives. When the mining union leader Arthur Scargill appeared before a Parliamentary committee and was asked at what level of loss it was acceptable to close a pit he answered “As far as I can see, the loss is without limits.”_ You are just straight up lying at this point. Even in France, unionist lawmaking is one of the reasons _why_ France has so little investment and manufacturing, and Macron was elected on a platform of trying to break it up. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FRA/france/manufacturing-output#:~:text=France%20manufacturing%20output%20for%202021,a%205.8%25%20increase%20from%202017 https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FRA/france/manufacturi.... United Kingdom $274.87B France $262.64B [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35092534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35092534
  - SuoDuanDao 4y ago
    It doesn't seem to work the same in the anglosphere though. Unions in Germany at least seem more like guilds, they engage in collective bargaining but also do a lot to ensure high quality work from their members. Less need to focus on the owner/management and more need to focus on the public/customer side of things. Anglo culture is probably more atomized, with different effects of collective bargaining as a result.
newaccount2023 4y ago
[flagged]
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Brexit has a conotation as being anti-foreigner, but it actually was also a "Anti-London-Elite" campaign, who is largely behind the focus of the whole country on becoming one huge tax fraud financial haven. Its the voters right, to try to regain control of his/her country, by rejecting those that take it for a undemocratic spin, no matter how clever that hijacking is marketed. England suffers from a resource curse, the resource being its ex-empire and the financial connections of the comon wealth.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    It's fairly ironic then that Brexit was required for the tax fraud haven to exist.
- francis-io 4y ago
  A little hyperbolic. Here's[0] a 64 page party manifesto from 2019. [0] https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/conservative-party-manifesto-2019 https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/conservative-party-ma... From the manifesto front page[1] they talk about immigration, the NHS and investing in schools and infrastructure. It's all rubbish and undelivered, but the policy is more than just Brexit. You might be thinking of UKIP? [1] https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan Question: Does a site exist that shows campaign promises and if they were delivered? I'm tired of voting one way and the party doing something else. I'm currently politically homeless and would like to back a party in the UK that actually does what it says.
- jjbinx007 4y ago
  The three word slogan is incredibly powerful: -Get Brexit done -Take back control Theresa May had a go with her meaningless "Brexit Means Brexit" slogan and now the current Prime Minster Rishi Sunak has "Stop the boats", which sort of proves that the "Take back control" slogan was as ridiculous as the rest of them. But whenever you engage in a discussion about Brexit with a Brexit voter I guarantee you'll hear a 3 word slogan used as if it was an actual argument. I find conversations are more constructive if both parties agree NOT to use slogans and instead try to have an honest discussion about what they really mean instead.
phpnode 4y ago
I'm not a natural Labour voter, but they have an approximately 25 point lead at the moment - they're very much getting their act together. I'm not sure where the "hating Israel" thing comes from, that talking point is several years out of date now.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fidgewidge 4y ago
  They aren't really getting their act together, they aren't doing much different to what they were doing before that poll lead. That lead is the result of the Conservatives having constant leadership turmoil and appointing unpopular people to the Cabinet. It's a consequence of ruling party dysfunction rather than Labour suddenly improving.
rluhar 4y ago
Yes - and the more focus on “Culture War” topics by the Tories is equally ridiculous. It’s a generational failure of leadership.
fatneckbeard 4y ago
irish republican or guns and incest republican?
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  The latter.
  - fatneckbeard 4y ago
    apologies im sure you aren't all pro incest but i couldnt think of how else to call it
devnull3 4y ago
> immigration sentiment in the Midlands Like it or not, UK needs (skilled & semi-skilled) immigrants. There are jobs which the citizens do not want to do but still expect world-class, low-cost services. This is where semi-skilled people which used to come from Europe stopped after the brexit. To fund the welfare system, NHS, old-age care, the govt needs money. This is where high tax paying, skilled immigrants come in. The govt is not doing much to attract the relevant people (unlike Germany, Canada for example)
- bbg2401 4y ago
  > There are jobs which the citizens do not want to do Do you have a shred of evidence to support this?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - devnull3 4y ago
    Construction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPGe6HQlZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPGe6HQlZI Hotels,pubs,etc: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/british-people-justdont-want-jobs-will-happen-restaurant-industry/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/british-... Documentary: Britain's Unemployment Crisis | A Very British Job Agency | Channel 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVH6pgKyZvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVH6pgKyZvE Taxis/Uber (anecdotal): I rarely see proper english uber drivers.
- pseudo0 4y ago
  The primary beneficiaries of those low-cost services seem to be the upper deciles, while the indirect harm hits the lower stratas of society. And the net benefit seems entirely unclear, especially when the long-term pension and benefits obligations for immigrants are taken into account. For example, let's say immigration reduces the cost of housekeeping services from $20 per hour to $15 per hour. That's great for an upper-middle class person who saves a bit of their weekly cleaning bill, but a lower-middle class person saves nothing, because they clean their own house. And the people who were displaced from that semi-skilled industry are now likely looking for jobs in other semi-skilled industries, depressing wages across those classes of jobs. And of course immigration also contributes to rent inflation and increases in the cost of real estate, which primarily benefits those with significant capital in real estate (again, disproportionately the very wealthy) while driving down disposable income for everyone else.
samizdis 4y ago
With respect to the "hating Israel" comment, I'd encourage people to read an article written by David Graeber (now, sadly, deceased) in 2019: For the first time in my life, I'm frightened to be Jewish [1] [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/first-time-my-life-im-frightened-be-jewish/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/first-time-...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

uhtred 4y ago

What has Labour done to suggest they hate Israel?

SuoDuanDao 4y ago
Supposedly Jeremy Corbin said something overly critical of its foreign policy, but I've yet to hear a direct quote I wouldn't myself say in public.
francis-io 4y ago
Looks like they recently made up: "UK Labour Party is pro-Israel again, says chair of its visiting friendship group" "After antisemitism drove Jews away in Corbyn era, MP Steve McCabe says opposition party has returned to traditional Israel-backing stance, but is concerned about the new coalition" https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-party-is-pro-israel-again-says-chair-of-its-visiting-friendship-group/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-party-is-pro-israel-...
- theironhammer 4y ago
  Wow, so you have to be pro-Israel in order to not be considered an anti-Semite? What about all those Israelis marching against the govt in Israel, are they considered anti-Semites too? Western political discourse has descended into utter nonsense.
  - anoonmoose 4y ago
    There are entire Wikipedia articles on the history of Labour's issues with anti-Semitism- I know, because my link to one was posted before your reply was. The issue is much more nuanced than what you or the person you're replying to are implying.
anoonmoose 4y ago
Look, I don't really wanna get bogged down in Tory-Labour, Republican-Democrat, "is being opposed to certain issues and members of the Irsaeli government anti-Semitic" conversation. I really don't. But as a US citizen who follows US news closely and world news incidentally, I'm aware this is an entire topic of discussion. I expected it to be a section of Corbyn's page- and it was- but there's a whole Wikipedia article about it, so you can judge for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_... My personal read is, it ain't much different from some stuff in US politics. A bit of horseshoe theory stuff, not that I buy into that at large. But on the right you have politicians making alliances with neo-Nazis, on the left you have fervently pro-Palestine politicians. Both sides are or can be partially motivated by xenophobia, neither side is immune to having a theoretically defensible view possibly motivated by actual prejudice. I myself have been called an anti-Semite over disagreements that I believe to have little to do with religion and much to do with the actions of government agents. So it goes.
jampekka 4y ago
Proposed leftist economic policy.
vermooten 4y ago
St Jeremy led an institutionally anti-semitic Labour Party, clearly documented by the EHRC. Reading that will answer your question.

raspberry1337 4y ago

Ironic you blame the Tories, since all those industries primarily died of during the 70s, after the collapse of Bretton-woods; when unionist Labour ruled the country by marxist-economist principles.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
France and Germany are industrial powerhouses that are ruled by unions. Much more of their GDP comes from manufacturing than the USA, and dramatically more than the UK. It's absolutely possible to build a harmonious and productive system.
- raspberry1337 4y ago
  France has smaller manufacturing than the UK [1], neither France or Germany has never been "ruled by unions" the same way that the UK was in the 70s [2]: > _The most egregious example of waste was the coal industry, hence the strikes. The tax payer was subsidizing coal to the tune of £1.3 billion a year which was real money back then, just under 1% of total national GDP, not including the increased costs to power and steel industries that were prevented from using cheaper alternatives. When the mining union leader Arthur Scargill appeared before a Parliamentary committee and was asked at what level of loss it was acceptable to close a pit he answered “As far as I can see, the loss is without limits.”_ You are just straight up lying at this point. Even in France, unionist lawmaking is one of the reasons _why_ France has so little investment and manufacturing, and Macron was elected on a platform of trying to break it up. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FRA/france/manufacturing-output#:~:text=France%20manufacturing%20output%20for%202021,a%205.8%25%20increase%20from%202017 https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/FRA/france/manufacturi.... United Kingdom $274.87B France $262.64B [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35092534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35092534
- SuoDuanDao 4y ago
  It doesn't seem to work the same in the anglosphere though. Unions in Germany at least seem more like guilds, they engage in collective bargaining but also do a lot to ensure high quality work from their members. Less need to focus on the owner/management and more need to focus on the public/customer side of things. Anglo culture is probably more atomized, with different effects of collective bargaining as a result.

newaccount2023 4y ago

[flagged]

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
Brexit has a conotation as being anti-foreigner, but it actually was also a "Anti-London-Elite" campaign, who is largely behind the focus of the whole country on becoming one huge tax fraud financial haven. Its the voters right, to try to regain control of his/her country, by rejecting those that take it for a undemocratic spin, no matter how clever that hijacking is marketed. England suffers from a resource curse, the resource being its ex-empire and the financial connections of the comon wealth.
- happymellon 4y ago
  It's fairly ironic then that Brexit was required for the tax fraud haven to exist.
francis-io 4y ago
A little hyperbolic. Here's[0] a 64 page party manifesto from 2019. [0] https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/conservative-party-manifesto-2019 https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan/conservative-party-ma... From the manifesto front page[1] they talk about immigration, the NHS and investing in schools and infrastructure. It's all rubbish and undelivered, but the policy is more than just Brexit. You might be thinking of UKIP? [1] https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan Question: Does a site exist that shows campaign promises and if they were delivered? I'm tired of voting one way and the party doing something else. I'm currently politically homeless and would like to back a party in the UK that actually does what it says.
jjbinx007 4y ago
The three word slogan is incredibly powerful: -Get Brexit done -Take back control Theresa May had a go with her meaningless "Brexit Means Brexit" slogan and now the current Prime Minster Rishi Sunak has "Stop the boats", which sort of proves that the "Take back control" slogan was as ridiculous as the rest of them. But whenever you engage in a discussion about Brexit with a Brexit voter I guarantee you'll hear a 3 word slogan used as if it was an actual argument. I find conversations are more constructive if both parties agree NOT to use slogans and instead try to have an honest discussion about what they really mean instead.

phpnode 4y ago

I'm not a natural Labour voter, but they have an approximately 25 point lead at the moment - they're very much getting their act together. I'm not sure where the "hating Israel" thing comes from, that talking point is several years out of date now.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fidgewidge 4y ago
They aren't really getting their act together, they aren't doing much different to what they were doing before that poll lead. That lead is the result of the Conservatives having constant leadership turmoil and appointing unpopular people to the Cabinet. It's a consequence of ruling party dysfunction rather than Labour suddenly improving.

rluhar 4y ago

Yes - and the more focus on “Culture War” topics by the Tories is equally ridiculous. It’s a generational failure of leadership.

fatneckbeard 4y ago

irish republican or guns and incest republican?

throwayyy479087 4y ago
The latter.
- fatneckbeard 4y ago
  apologies im sure you aren't all pro incest but i couldnt think of how else to call it

devnull3 4y ago

> immigration sentiment in the Midlands Like it or not, UK needs (skilled & semi-skilled) immigrants. There are jobs which the citizens do not want to do but still expect world-class, low-cost services. This is where semi-skilled people which used to come from Europe stopped after the brexit. To fund the welfare system, NHS, old-age care, the govt needs money. This is where high tax paying, skilled immigrants come in. The govt is not doing much to attract the relevant people (unlike Germany, Canada for example)

bbg2401 4y ago
> There are jobs which the citizens do not want to do Do you have a shred of evidence to support this?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- devnull3 4y ago
  Construction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPGe6HQlZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPGe6HQlZI Hotels,pubs,etc: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/british-people-justdont-want-jobs-will-happen-restaurant-industry/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/british-... Documentary: Britain's Unemployment Crisis | A Very British Job Agency | Channel 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVH6pgKyZvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVH6pgKyZvE Taxis/Uber (anecdotal): I rarely see proper english uber drivers.
pseudo0 4y ago
The primary beneficiaries of those low-cost services seem to be the upper deciles, while the indirect harm hits the lower stratas of society. And the net benefit seems entirely unclear, especially when the long-term pension and benefits obligations for immigrants are taken into account. For example, let's say immigration reduces the cost of housekeeping services from $20 per hour to $15 per hour. That's great for an upper-middle class person who saves a bit of their weekly cleaning bill, but a lower-middle class person saves nothing, because they clean their own house. And the people who were displaced from that semi-skilled industry are now likely looking for jobs in other semi-skilled industries, depressing wages across those classes of jobs. And of course immigration also contributes to rent inflation and increases in the cost of real estate, which primarily benefits those with significant capital in real estate (again, disproportionately the very wealthy) while driving down disposable income for everyone else.

samizdis 4y ago

With respect to the "hating Israel" comment, I'd encourage people to read an article written by David Graeber (now, sadly, deceased) in 2019: For the first time in my life, I'm frightened to be Jewish [1] [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/first-time-my-life-im-frightened-be-jewish/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/first-time-...