4 ms·

True, but one continues to be used long after it's invention, and the other was dropped from almost every single one of its original use-cases, because it sucks

True, but one continues to be used long after it's invention, and the other was dropped from almost every single one of its original use-cases, because it sucks as a system to write numbers; It's hard to sort, it's hard to read/parse, it's a sign-value notation system making it suck for large numbers, its similarity to letters of the alphabet adds to the possible footguns, there is no zero, and it has no concept of values smaller than 1.

marginalia_nu 4y ago
I'd argue it's been dropped from the places where the other system has clear advantages.
- usrbinbash 4y ago
 Very true. But the question I now have to ask is: What tangible advantages do roman numerals confer in the spaces where they are still kept around.
 - marginalia_nu 4y ago
 They have stylistic and contextual advantages. Roman numerals carry the connotation of the numbers belonging to a title, the same way Writing Something Like This does. Except you can't do that with arabic numerals. They're all case-less. It's essentially a way of capitalizing numbers not entirely dissimilar to how Roman script in general is used as a way of capitalizing the English alphabet.
 - usrbinbash 4y ago
 "Roman numerals carry the connotation of the numbers belonging to a title" Okay. I. Weigh 500g of flour into a mixing bowl II. Add one egg III. Pour 2 cups of milk into the bowl IV. Mix until you have a runny dough So what title does that belong to? What title does MCMXCIX belong to? None, because they are not in the context of a title. Same as how I learned to stop worrying and love Linux doesn't belong to a title unless it's in the context of a title: How I stopped worrying and love Linux - An Essay So if context is the deciding factor for something belonging to a title, what role does numeric notation play in there? Is 9 surprising ways how powershell can help my workflow any less a title than if I had used `IX` instead of `9`? > It's essentially a way of capitalizing numbers Okay, so how do I capitalize, say, 175,000,000,000 using roman numerals if I want to, eg. write the title of article about how many params GPT-3 has? A way of capitalizing numbers, that suddenly stops being useful when numbers are large, isn't a very good way in my opinion.
 - marginalia_nu 4y ago
 I mean title in the sense of the name of a work or entity. Like the title of a book. In your example, I. Weigh 500g of flour into a mixing bowl II. Add one egg III. Pour 2 cups of milk into the bowl IV. Mix until you have a runny dough the roman numerals stand to distinguish the ordinals from the instructions. To illustrate the problem, let's turn everything into arabic numerals. 1. Weigh 500g of flour into a mixing bowl 2. Add 1 egg 3. Pour 2 cups of milk into the bowl 4. Mix until you have a runny dough This is strictly harder to parse. Using Roman numerals means you don't have to wonder whether it's III cups of milk or 2 from a glance because nobody would write the former. > Okay, so how do I capitalize, say, 175,000,000,000 using roman numerals if I want to, eg. write the title of article about how many params GPT-3 has? A way of capitalizing numbers, that suddenly stops being useful when numbers are large, isn't a very good way in my opinion. Right, in which context would you capitalize the number 175,000,000,000? It's not really part of a name. If the model was called GPT-175,000,000,000, then I'd see why you'd consider writing it in roman numerals, but it isn't. Within e.g. the title of a article, roman numerals allows you to further capitalize a number. Like you could write "Doom II Ships On Four Floppy Disks". This makes it clearer that the II is part of the name.
 usrbinbash 4y ago
 > I mean title in the sense of the name of a work or entity. "Henry the 8th" or "Henry the 8." conveys exactly the same information as "Henry VIII". The context makes it clear that the numeral is part of a designation. The same is true for "Star Wars Episode 4", "Act 2 Scene 5", "Harry Potter 2" or any other use of a title. The difference is: 8 is trivially easy to parse. With "VIII", software has to accomodate people writing it in unicode and people writing it in latin letters, plus the parser needs to handle the subtraction logic, otherwise "Henry IV" will be sad, and as a human, depending on the font used, I may have to look twice whether there are 2 I's or 3. > This is strictly harder to parse. What? How is this harder to parse? The dot after the numbers makes it increadibly clear that this is a list item. You know what CAN be hard to parse at a glance? The difference between "III" and "II". > roman numerals allows you to further capitalize a number. No they don't because there is no such thing as a "capitalized number". If I want to make a number stand out visually, I have multiple choices that don't require using an antique way of writing numerals: I can use , , , change the font, font size or even color my numbers. > This makes it clearer that the II is part of the name. "Doom 2 ships on 4 floppy disks" is just as clear. As with the examples above, the context determines what is part of a title, and what isn't.
 - BobaFloutist 4y ago
 I'm curious if anyone has any answer beyond "flavor," which is a valid reason to do something, but is worth being explicit about.
a_shovel 4y ago
The Romans did actually have a simple dozenal fraction system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Fractions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Fractions
- KineticLensman 4y ago
  Well, yes. But its a duodecimal system that incorporates uncial dots. E.g. 9/12 is written as S··· That ellipsis looking thing will be fun for screen readers.

marginalia_nu 4y ago

I'd argue it's been dropped from the places where the other system has clear advantages.

usrbinbash 4y ago
Very true. But the question I now have to ask is: What tangible advantages do roman numerals confer in the spaces where they are still kept around.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
 They have stylistic and contextual advantages. Roman numerals carry the connotation of the numbers belonging to a title, the same way Writing Something Like This does. Except you can't do that with arabic numerals. They're all case-less. It's essentially a way of capitalizing numbers not entirely dissimilar to how Roman script in general is used as a way of capitalizing the English alphabet.
 - usrbinbash 4y ago
 "Roman numerals carry the connotation of the numbers belonging to a title" Okay. I. Weigh 500g of flour into a mixing bowl II. Add one egg III. Pour 2 cups of milk into the bowl IV. Mix until you have a runny dough So what title does that belong to? What title does MCMXCIX belong to? None, because they are not in the context of a title. Same as how I learned to stop worrying and love Linux doesn't belong to a title unless it's in the context of a title: How I stopped worrying and love Linux - An Essay So if context is the deciding factor for something belonging to a title, what role does numeric notation play in there? Is 9 surprising ways how powershell can help my workflow any less a title than if I had used `IX` instead of `9`? > It's essentially a way of capitalizing numbers Okay, so how do I capitalize, say, 175,000,000,000 using roman numerals if I want to, eg. write the title of article about how many params GPT-3 has? A way of capitalizing numbers, that suddenly stops being useful when numbers are large, isn't a very good way in my opinion.
 - marginalia_nu 4y ago
 I mean title in the sense of the name of a work or entity. Like the title of a book. In your example, I. Weigh 500g of flour into a mixing bowl II. Add one egg III. Pour 2 cups of milk into the bowl IV. Mix until you have a runny dough the roman numerals stand to distinguish the ordinals from the instructions. To illustrate the problem, let's turn everything into arabic numerals. 1. Weigh 500g of flour into a mixing bowl 2. Add 1 egg 3. Pour 2 cups of milk into the bowl 4. Mix until you have a runny dough This is strictly harder to parse. Using Roman numerals means you don't have to wonder whether it's III cups of milk or 2 from a glance because nobody would write the former. > Okay, so how do I capitalize, say, 175,000,000,000 using roman numerals if I want to, eg. write the title of article about how many params GPT-3 has? A way of capitalizing numbers, that suddenly stops being useful when numbers are large, isn't a very good way in my opinion. Right, in which context would you capitalize the number 175,000,000,000? It's not really part of a name. If the model was called GPT-175,000,000,000, then I'd see why you'd consider writing it in roman numerals, but it isn't. Within e.g. the title of a article, roman numerals allows you to further capitalize a number. Like you could write "Doom II Ships On Four Floppy Disks". This makes it clearer that the II is part of the name.
 - usrbinbash 4y ago
 > I mean title in the sense of the name of a work or entity. "Henry the 8th" or "Henry the 8." conveys exactly the same information as "Henry VIII". The context makes it clear that the numeral is part of a designation. The same is true for "Star Wars Episode 4", "Act 2 Scene 5", "Harry Potter 2" or any other use of a title. The difference is: 8 is trivially easy to parse. With "VIII", software has to accomodate people writing it in unicode and people writing it in latin letters, plus the parser needs to handle the subtraction logic, otherwise "Henry IV" will be sad, and as a human, depending on the font used, I may have to look twice whether there are 2 I's or 3. > This is strictly harder to parse. What? How is this harder to parse? The dot after the numbers makes it increadibly clear that this is a list item. You know what CAN be hard to parse at a glance? The difference between "III" and "II". > roman numerals allows you to further capitalize a number. No they don't because there is no such thing as a "capitalized number". If I want to make a number stand out visually, I have multiple choices that don't require using an antique way of writing numerals: I can use , , , change the font, font size or even color my numbers. > This makes it clearer that the II is part of the name. "Doom 2 ships on 4 floppy disks" is just as clear. As with the examples above, the context determines what is part of a title, and what isn't.
- BobaFloutist 4y ago
 I'm curious if anyone has any answer beyond "flavor," which is a valid reason to do something, but is worth being explicit about.

a_shovel 4y ago

The Romans did actually have a simple dozenal fraction system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Fractions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Fractions

KineticLensman 4y ago
Well, yes. But its a duodecimal system that incorporates uncial dots. E.g. 9/12 is written as S··· That ellipsis looking thing will be fun for screen readers.