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> Russia is defending its security against being surrounded by a hostile military alliance led by its geopolitical enemy This is nothing but typical authoritar

by mopsi 4y ago

> Russia is defending its security against being surrounded by a hostile military alliance led by its geopolitical enemy This is nothing but typical authoritarian fear-mongering about being surrounded and under attack. It's not true at all, not even remotely. After the Cold War, European countries reduced their armed forces up to 10x. For example, Germany went from 3800 tanks in 1980s to some 200 today, and the US moved its last tanks out of Europe in 2013. This only began to change in 2014 after Russia invaded Eastern Ukraine. What security was there to defend, if Europe was unilaterally disarming itself? What security are they currently defending by shooting missiles into apartment buildings in Lviv, a thousand kilometers away from Russia? If anything, the arms reduction in Europe was seen as weakness and provoked Russia to attack Ukraine in the first place. > You won’t care what billions of people think. Or what leaders think. Or what experts think. Speaking of leaders, the only UN members who buy the entire Russian narrative are Syria and North Korea, while 141 countries out of 193 voted explicitly against it. Take a look at the map, it really does speak for itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl... You are rehashing Russian propaganda narrative that has virtually no support in the world except for professional contrarians and other fringe groups. How did you get sucked into this? Youtube videos? Social media influencers?

EGreg 4y ago
To hear you (and other “true believers”) tell it, everyone’s a Putin agent. The Pope is a Putin agent. Leaders and people of countries with billions of people. Hundreds of thousands of protestors in Eastern European countries. And even of thousands of protestors in every Western European country. And even here in the US. Republicans. Progressives. Everyone is spouting Russian propaganda when they call for a resumption of diplomatic discussions and negotiated settlement, and blame NATO for instigating this? https://www.reuters.com/world/us-congress-progressives-withdraw-letter-urging-negotiations-end-ukraine-war-2022-10-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us-congress-progressives-withd... I have a different theory (as does most of the world outside your bubble). You are the one repeating propaganda. Let me count the ways: 1. NATO attacks Yugoslavia, declares Kosovo independent, destroys Libya and turns it into a failed state, you say very little. You keep repeating it’s “purely defensive” and Russia has nothing to fear. 2. CIA fomented a regime change revolution in Ukraine to overthrow the sitting president, helped train and arm far right extremist paramilitary groups, and you say nothing about it. They likely tried to do the same in Kazakhstan and Belarus, too, but were so far unable. (Russian agencies do this as well btw.) The reality is much more complex than your simplistic one dimensional analysis which ignores all these factors. 4. US/UK forces blow up the pipelines sending gas from Russia to Europe, try to pin it on Russia initially (it failed) and you don’t even care that they screwed European industry and economy etc. 5. Nearly ALL the people with actual domain experience have warned Clinton, Bush, etc. that NATO enlargement will likely lead to war with Russia, especially with Ukraine. And that is exactly what they wanted — Ukraine. You think they care deeply about Ukraine? They cared deeply about Afghanistan? NO, they are simply useful for making Russia bleed, “for as hard and as long as possible,” in the words of Brezhinski. They consider you a “useful idiot” and lie to their own public about their covert actions (eg #4). And then later they declassify it but by that time it’s too late to care: https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/213722/amp https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/how-jimmy-carter-... This is the architects of these proxy wars, all the way up to the US President — wars like Afghanistan in which 2 million civilians died just so we can stick it to the Soviets! But during that war they lied to you and then declassified it — and they have NO REGRETS. Two million dead civilians bro. This is the “collateral damage” you are willing to pay cause you’re not the one paying it right? Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. You dismiss calls for peace talks and valuing human beings’ lives as being “Russian propaganda”. I say you are perpetuating US warmonger propaganda. Would you like to stop carrying water for thr CIA and military industrial complex? Their track record neafly 100% of the time reveals they were behind making sure conflicts commenced and perpetuated them at the cost of real human lives abroad, while you with your one dimensional moralizing sit here and barely notice it. Laos. Nicaragua. Iraq. Afghanistan. Libya. Syria. This time it’s different, right? Wait until they declassify it in 2030 and by then you’ll just say “oh mistakes were made” and by then it will be ANOTHER war that is “different this time”. That is, if there is no nuclear war by then.
- mopsi 4y ago
  Only Russia, Syria and North Korea support this narrative, while 141 out of 193 UN members have explicitly called this bullshit and demanded Russia to get the fuck out of Ukraine. It's a simple, yet powerful reminder where Russia stands in the world: 3 vs 141. Even Nazi Germany had more international support.
  - EGreg 4y ago
    Read this link: https://unwatch.org/2022-2023-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-of-the-world/ https://unwatch.org/2022-2023-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-... We find that UN had 148 countries vote against Israel to get “the fuck” out of the Golan Heights, and only Israel and USA and Liberia voted against. We also find another resolution by the plenary where 141 countries voted and only Israel and USA voted against. Now according to your logic, the USA is dead wrong, and Nikki Haley should stop telling the rest of the UN how wrong they are and how Israel is the only democracy in the region, etc etc. But then read the Analysis column of the UN resolution — all the stuff they missed in their procedures: Ignores the existence of the Syrian Civil War and its security implications for Israel and the civilians of the Golan Heights. Also ignores Syria’s history of shelling Israeli communities, its leader’s calls for a “war of annihilation” against Israel, and Syria’s 1967 aggression that led to its loss of the territory. Also neglects Syria’s sponsorship of the enemies of the peace process, and its support for terrorism. Falsely claims that Israel is oppressing and imposing Israeli citizenship on the Arab population of the Golan Heights. Now, I am not here to argue the nuances of that particular dispute. My point is simply that pointing to UN resolutions against a country doesn’t exactly accomplish as much as you think it does — and also opens you up to charges of hypocrisy because USA is completely on the other side of that. You as the public receive whatever news coverage is appropriate to condition you to support one or the other position. So do people of other countries. I am not saying they are better informed than you — media in most countries is biased and selectively shows only things from one narrative, year after year — but what I am saying is you don’t have the whole story. I care about actions and consequences on the ground. Libya is destroyed. NATO destroyed it. UN did not authorize NATO to bomb Yugoslavia, and yet they did. NATO is not a purely defensive alliance. Russia is right to fear it just like USA was right to fear USSR placing missiles on Cuba. For me, it is more complex picture and guess what — for most of the world outside your bubble it is, too. Every time they poll the entire world, USA comes out as a bigger threat than Russia or China. The rest of the world doesn’t agree with you. You think the country you live in “jusy makes mistakes” and others around the world see it as instigating almost every conflict and it would be better if it stayed out. You should care about data and facts, instead of cherry-picking some only. Look: 2006: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/15/usa.iran https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/15/usa.iran https://nypost.com/2014/01/05/us-is-the-greatest-threat-to-world-peace-poll/ https://nypost.com/2014/01/05/us-is-the-greatest-threat-to-w... 2013: https://brilliantmaps.com/threat-to-peace/ https://brilliantmaps.com/threat-to-peace/ 2021: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo... They poll people around THE ENTIRE WORLD mopsi. How can you see so many people choose USA as the greatest threat to world peace and democracy, and then yawn and say “stop your Russian propaganda”? India. China. The Pope. Representative samples of billions of people. How can you see all those people blaming NATO for this conflict, and say “well, they’re just wrong and uninformed”? There is just one conclusion here… you may be the one who has been in a propaganda bubble. You should speak to others around the world outside NATO countries. How often have you done that? To whom?

by mopsi 4y ago

EGreg 4y ago

To hear you (and other “true believers”) tell it, everyone’s a Putin agent. The Pope is a Putin agent. Leaders and people of countries with billions of people. Hundreds of thousands of protestors in Eastern European countries. And even of thousands of protestors in every Western European country. And even here in the US. Republicans. Progressives. Everyone is spouting Russian propaganda when they call for a resumption of diplomatic discussions and negotiated settlement, and blame NATO for instigating this? https://www.reuters.com/world/us-congress-progressives-withdraw-letter-urging-negotiations-end-ukraine-war-2022-10-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us-congress-progressives-withd... I have a different theory (as does most of the world outside your bubble). You are the one repeating propaganda. Let me count the ways: 1. NATO attacks Yugoslavia, declares Kosovo independent, destroys Libya and turns it into a failed state, you say very little. You keep repeating it’s “purely defensive” and Russia has nothing to fear. 2. CIA fomented a regime change revolution in Ukraine to overthrow the sitting president, helped train and arm far right extremist paramilitary groups, and you say nothing about it. They likely tried to do the same in Kazakhstan and Belarus, too, but were so far unable. (Russian agencies do this as well btw.) The reality is much more complex than your simplistic one dimensional analysis which ignores all these factors. 4. US/UK forces blow up the pipelines sending gas from Russia to Europe, try to pin it on Russia initially (it failed) and you don’t even care that they screwed European industry and economy etc. 5. Nearly ALL the people with actual domain experience have warned Clinton, Bush, etc. that NATO enlargement will likely lead to war with Russia, especially with Ukraine. And that is exactly what they wanted — Ukraine. You think they care deeply about Ukraine? They cared deeply about Afghanistan? NO, they are simply useful for making Russia bleed, “for as hard and as long as possible,” in the words of Brezhinski. They consider you a “useful idiot” and lie to their own public about their covert actions (eg #4). And then later they declassify it but by that time it’s too late to care: https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/213722/amp https://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/how-jimmy-carter-... This is the architects of these proxy wars, all the way up to the US President — wars like Afghanistan in which 2 million civilians died just so we can stick it to the Soviets! But during that war they lied to you and then declassified it — and they have NO REGRETS. Two million dead civilians bro. This is the “collateral damage” you are willing to pay cause you’re not the one paying it right? Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. You dismiss calls for peace talks and valuing human beings’ lives as being “Russian propaganda”. I say you are perpetuating US warmonger propaganda. Would you like to stop carrying water for thr CIA and military industrial complex? Their track record neafly 100% of the time reveals they were behind making sure conflicts commenced and perpetuated them at the cost of real human lives abroad, while you with your one dimensional moralizing sit here and barely notice it. Laos. Nicaragua. Iraq. Afghanistan. Libya. Syria. This time it’s different, right? Wait until they declassify it in 2030 and by then you’ll just say “oh mistakes were made” and by then it will be ANOTHER war that is “different this time”. That is, if there is no nuclear war by then.

mopsi 4y ago
Only Russia, Syria and North Korea support this narrative, while 141 out of 193 UN members have explicitly called this bullshit and demanded Russia to get the fuck out of Ukraine. It's a simple, yet powerful reminder where Russia stands in the world: 3 vs 141. Even Nazi Germany had more international support.
- EGreg 4y ago
  Read this link: https://unwatch.org/2022-2023-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-rest-of-the-world/ https://unwatch.org/2022-2023-unga-resolutions-on-israel-vs-... We find that UN had 148 countries vote against Israel to get “the fuck” out of the Golan Heights, and only Israel and USA and Liberia voted against. We also find another resolution by the plenary where 141 countries voted and only Israel and USA voted against. Now according to your logic, the USA is dead wrong, and Nikki Haley should stop telling the rest of the UN how wrong they are and how Israel is the only democracy in the region, etc etc. But then read the Analysis column of the UN resolution — all the stuff they missed in their procedures: Ignores the existence of the Syrian Civil War and its security implications for Israel and the civilians of the Golan Heights. Also ignores Syria’s history of shelling Israeli communities, its leader’s calls for a “war of annihilation” against Israel, and Syria’s 1967 aggression that led to its loss of the territory. Also neglects Syria’s sponsorship of the enemies of the peace process, and its support for terrorism. Falsely claims that Israel is oppressing and imposing Israeli citizenship on the Arab population of the Golan Heights. Now, I am not here to argue the nuances of that particular dispute. My point is simply that pointing to UN resolutions against a country doesn’t exactly accomplish as much as you think it does — and also opens you up to charges of hypocrisy because USA is completely on the other side of that. You as the public receive whatever news coverage is appropriate to condition you to support one or the other position. So do people of other countries. I am not saying they are better informed than you — media in most countries is biased and selectively shows only things from one narrative, year after year — but what I am saying is you don’t have the whole story. I care about actions and consequences on the ground. Libya is destroyed. NATO destroyed it. UN did not authorize NATO to bomb Yugoslavia, and yet they did. NATO is not a purely defensive alliance. Russia is right to fear it just like USA was right to fear USSR placing missiles on Cuba. For me, it is more complex picture and guess what — for most of the world outside your bubble it is, too. Every time they poll the entire world, USA comes out as a bigger threat than Russia or China. The rest of the world doesn’t agree with you. You think the country you live in “jusy makes mistakes” and others around the world see it as instigating almost every conflict and it would be better if it stayed out. You should care about data and facts, instead of cherry-picking some only. Look: 2006: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/15/usa.iran https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2006/jun/15/usa.iran https://nypost.com/2014/01/05/us-is-the-greatest-threat-to-world-peace-poll/ https://nypost.com/2014/01/05/us-is-the-greatest-threat-to-w... 2013: https://brilliantmaps.com/threat-to-peace/ https://brilliantmaps.com/threat-to-peace/ 2021: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo... They poll people around THE ENTIRE WORLD mopsi. How can you see so many people choose USA as the greatest threat to world peace and democracy, and then yawn and say “stop your Russian propaganda”? India. China. The Pope. Representative samples of billions of people. How can you see all those people blaming NATO for this conflict, and say “well, they’re just wrong and uninformed”? There is just one conclusion here… you may be the one who has been in a propaganda bubble. You should speak to others around the world outside NATO countries. How often have you done that? To whom?